??how do you deal with downhill decreasing radius turns?/

[fasterblkduc]

Because a decreasing radius line is more than just where you apex.

  Huh?

The way she wrote that, she braked to the apex before she even turned. That's not possible. Doesn't matter where the apex is, or what turn you are on, the apex is the point at which you are closest to the INSIDE of the turn. On most turns, you don't even get there until you have completed more than 50% of the turn.

[EvilSteve]

Ha ha, I mis-wrote as well. I meant to say that a late apex line is more than just where you apex. The line you take to the apex isn't set in stone. Late apex only describes an apex which is past 50% of the corner radius.

I understand what you're saying now & agree. I will say though that it is possible to late apex a turn & then turn in if you're double apexing but I realize that I'm just being pedantic now.

[somegirl]

I wasn't trying to bust your chops...hard to convey emotion on the internet. That does sound better. Would you say that a better way to explain your braking would be to trail brake? Because I think what you mean is that you are staying on the brake longer into the corner to scrub off more speed. For the less experienced riders, hearing "brake hard" can be a little confusing.
Just some food for thought

Thanks for the clarification.  Yes, I trail brake but the majority of the braking (the hard braking) is done while I am still straight up and down.  Then I turn in while trail braking with the front.  I hope that makes more sense?

[Ddan]

You need to keep turning.  The bike simply won't turn in under hard front brake.  Like Somegirl said, brake hard while you're upright, trail brake into the apex if you need to,  but if the turn gets tighter keep turning.  If you're not on the brakes the bike will have a lot more turn capability than you will be comfortable with.  Grabbing a bunch of brake, front or rear, will not help.

[fasterblkduc]

You need to keep turning.  The bike simply won't turn in under hard front brake.  Like Somegirl said, brake hard while you're upright, trail brake into the apex if you need to,  but if the turn gets tighter keep turning.  If you're not on the brakes the bike will have a lot more turn capability than you will be comfortable with.  Grabbing a bunch of brake, front or rear, will not help.

Yikes...sorry man but you are backwards here. When you brake, the front end drops and the steering quickens because you are shortening your wheelbase and changing your rake. The bike steers much quicker when on the brakes. That's why when driving out of a corner, the harder you get on the throttle, the wider you go. You are extending the forks back out and widening your line. Sorry but you are saying the exact opposite of what is true.
On the track, we are on the front brake very hard all the way to the apex. In fact, the rear wheel is often off the ground as we are turning in.

The rear brake is used as a steering technique also, but it is extremely difficult to do and not many people know how to do it effectively.

[Ddan]

Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong then.  On the track, if I'm too hard on the brakes the bike won't turn in. As soon as I let off, the bike drops into the corner and I can trail off to the apex.  I know what you're saying about steering angle and wheel base, but the bike doesn't want to tip in until I start to ease off the brake.

[fasterblkduc]

Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong then.  On the track, if I'm too hard on the brakes the bike won't turn in. As soon as I let off, the bike drops into the corner and I can trail off to the apex.  I know what you're saying about steering angle and wheel base, but the bike doesn't want to tip in until I start to ease off the brake.

Hmmm...that's odd. I would love to help you with this but I'm going to have to think about that for a bit. Any more details? Are you using the rear brake too? How's your body position? Are you weighting the front with your upper body? That last question is what I'm guessing you might be doing. If that sounds right, let me know, I can help you with that technique.

[ducpainter]

What is this rear brake that keeps being mentioned?

[fasterblkduc]

What is this rear brake that keeps being mentioned?

exactly 

You would be surprised at how many students I see that look at me like I'm crazy in class when I start talking about not using the rear brake. That discussion is usually fun. It's one of my tricks to see how advanced a rider is. Throw that out there and see their reaction. The ones that know always look bored, everyone else looks scared

[Ddan]

Hmmm...that's odd. I would love to help you with this but I'm going to have to think about that for a bit. Any more details? Are you using the rear brake too? How's your body position? Are you weighting the front with your upper body? That last question is what I'm guessing you might be doing. If that sounds right, let me know, I can help you with that technique.

I'm a decent street rider, but still pretty much a hack on the track.  Typically, no rear brake and yes to weighting the front end under braking. (I'm old and fat).  As much as I'm gripping the tank, I know I'm still leaning on the bars.  Easing off the brake is almost like removing a brace from the front end, and it tips in just as nice as can be.  I don't doubt that some of it is technique, but we are talking about street riding.  I think for most people who feel they've overcooked a corner, braking hard late in the corner isn't the right thing to do.

[fasterblkduc]

I think that I can definitely give you some tips for your turn in issue based on what I'm hearing. Do you want me to critique you? If so, would you rather me discuss this "offline"? PM me if you wish. I'm asking because some people are not comfortable with talking about themselves and having their technique discussed in front of others.

This does transfer to street so I don't want you to think that this is for track only. This goes back to what I was saying about being prepared for these situations on the street by learning performance riding techniques on the track...it does transfer. Unfortunately, bad habits are developed on the street (by everyone) that transfer to the track at first. It's not until you break those bad habits that you become a better rider.  Somegirl is an example of how learning advanced techniques transfers because the way she explained her trailbraking, she sounds like she has taken a school, done trackdays, or learned from someone. I'm not sure which but she has picked up a skill that does transfer to the street to her advantage. 

[Ddan]

By all means, critique.  For what it's worth, I asked a couple of very experienced track riders/instructors about this at my last track day, and they agreed that it takes a great deal of effort to get the bike to tip in under hard braking.  I asked how much my weight on the bars had to do with it and I got back that it would contribute to the problem but not necessarily be the cause. 

[stopintime]

...............................

 Are you weighting the front with your upper body? That last question is what I'm guessing you might be doing. If that sounds right, let me know, I can help you with that technique.

Please do!

I'm trying my best to redistribute bike/rider weight for confident and easy turning. (I have -10mm front and +10mm rear) Seems to be working well. I squeeze the tank to the point where I feel that I control the bike through the middle, not the bars.

Anything else? (this is fun)

[fasterblkduc]

fasterblkduc:
How would you like a Mediterranean holiday in exchange for riding lessons?

 

[fasterblkduc]

Ok Dan, I'm going to try and do this but I'm not a great writer. I can speak well and keep students awake  but my writing skills are to be desired.

From your description of the problem and profile pic I'm going to have to give it my best educated estimate. I think that you need to work on your body positioning. Notice in your avatar pic that you are cornering and slightly hanging off but where is your upper body? It's on the top of the tank still. You are crossed over. Learning proper body positioning while cornering is going to take some practice but you can get there. I'm going to guess that you are fighting with your front end so hard because of your body positioning that you are actually pushing your weight hard into the bars while braking and therefore unable to properly countersteer into the turn.

When coming into a turn at speed, the first thing to do is sit upright, look to find your first visual reference point (if on a track it's usually a brake marker), get that knee out and your bum off the seat, then start easing on the front brake lever. (I'm going to keep this fairly basic and not talk about downshifts, throttle blipping, etc. We're just going to work on form here for now.) When you actually get off the seat can vary depending on the turn but to start with, learn to set up good and early. As that front brake is being squeezed, you should be looking to your second reference point, (the apex of the turn) and starting to tip in. You should be hanging off now pretty far and start preparing to get to that full lean point which is right at the apex. As soon approach the apex, shift your vision up and look all the way down the track to the next turn and not look at the pavement near you. Now you are at the apex, and you can start countersteering out of the turn, and picking the bike back up. You should already be at a maintenance throttle (we can cover that later too) and starting to roll the throttle back on and drving out of the turn.

So, that's a basic snapshot of what you are trying to do. Now let's go back to body positioning and entering the turn. When you grab the brake, you are droping the front end and putting a massive forward weight bias on the bike's front end. Not only from the bike but your own weight as well. Alot of racers squeeze the tank hard here to avoid transfering their weight into the bars, which gos into the froks and you then become an extension of the forks and that's bad! Your suspension cannot work properly if you become an extension of it and I think that you are probably doing this.

The real key here is core strength. using your legs to not only stop that initial push forward, but to also hold you onto the bike while cornering. You need to learn to use your legs, stomach, and lower back muscles to do this properly. When racers throw the bike into the corner, we are being very aggressive with our input. It's countersteering. if you are turning right, you push on the right bar. We also countersteer out of the turn by pushing on the opposite bar to stand the bike up faster. After the initial input, we are then not giving much input to the bars at all. So when leaned over all the way, we are barely doing anything to the grips with our hands. Just giving a slight push to hold the bike's line but we can actually take a hand off because there is almost nothing there. We are using that core strength and outer leg on the tank to hold us on.

I think that you are braking, letting your weight transfer into the bars, and using your upper body so much that you can't make that steering input until you ease off the brake. You are getting by with it because you are not pushing yourself to pick up your corner speed. Same with your upper body. Like your pic shows, you can get by with that for now but as you get faster, there will be a time when that form will put you on your head and I don't want to see that happen. I've had students that have physical limitations of different kinds that really struggle with this and it takes them a while to get better. Some are repeat students so I see their progression and it may take some of them having to go to the school several times to get better. I don't know you and have not seen you ride so I'm guessing by your description of yourself that you may feel like you are already struggling. My advice is just get lots of practice in and if you really want to get better it may be a fitness issue. There is no shame in that. I used to struggle with my fitness because I would get so tired after doing a couple of races and it was hard to complete a full race weekend. So I went nuts and started training and now I'm a completely different person! If I can do it, you can do it.

Some other points that I want to make...having good form and relaxing is key to not getting fatigued. I tell students to go into turns and before they get to the turn, flap their elbows like a chicken to remind them to relax. First few sessions I see people doing it and they all say thanks because it helped them remember to relax. If you are tense, you will get worn out fast and then your from gets sloppy, and you are too tired. At the last school day of the year, I was on an ex AMA GSXR1000 that was putting out a solid 180hp. I was so tense riding that rocket ship that I got extremely tired and my muscles were sore all evening. It was a blast to ride but it wasn't mine so I was just tense and had to be very aware of that rear tire spinning. So, it can happen to any of us, just work hard to relax. I have some tricks that I use to relax. I wear earplugs and a mouthguard. The mouthguard was recommended by an oldschool racer who raced IOM, British GP, MotoGP and raced with the likes of Dunlop, Agostini, Nielsen, Smart, etc. He is a very wise man and he recommended that I wear one and it was one of the best things that anyone has ever told me. Not only does it help me relax, but it reduces concussions. So if you are having trouble with relaxing, try those things.

Another key thing is getting your suspension set up properly. That is the best mod that you can do for yourself, hands down.

It's really hard to go into great detail when limited by a keyboard, and not being hands on and riding with you. I just walked you through a BASIC cornering how to and just barely talked about proper form. I think that your issue can be resolved by one on one instruction but it's up to you to attend a school to get it. I would do  a trackday with you if you came near the midwest. ( I have no idea where you are) I hope that this helps point you in the right direction, because I can't do a lot without following you on a bike but at least you now have my opinion. If you read this and it doesn't make sense, let me know. Or if you have other questions...cause winter is not even here yet and there will be a lot of time spent on this computer!