What loud pipes really say...

[NFG]

You may want to read this thread before you continue on without the earplugs.

Thanks very much for that.  I will give them a go tonight and see how I fare.

The only time I have *ever* heard a motorcycle and known it was a moto was AFTER it went by.

Very true, but: I don't care if they know I'm a bike, I care that they know I exist.  =)

It's all about chance and decreasing that chance, even slightly, might in fact save your life.

Exactly right: there's no magic bullet.  I know how to avoid cars and recognize the dozers intent on hurting me, but if I can gain a little advantage with louder pipes, I think it's worth considering. 

[Ducatl]

The only time I have *ever* heard a motorcycle and known it was a moto was AFTER it went by. Typically when they lane split by me on the highway I don't hear them. I notice modulating headlights, but the sound is directed backwards-so all it does is make it feel like you're make the beast with two backsing my ear after you pass me.

I'm sure there are countless situations where the effect of loud pipes is effectively zero in terms of safety, barreling up a highway at 10/10ths and passing traffic like it's standing still is certainly one of those situations.  I think however that it's unfair to claim that loud pipes have zero effect just because you can identify situations in which they appear to have no effect on other drivers attention. 

For instance, do you think they might have an effect if you had a sane rider who just happened to be riding in your blind spot? or a rider that was only overtaking you at a slow rate?  Maybe in a situation that's not on a highway? perhaps city traffic, blind corners, obscured entrances and exits?

[Howie]

I suspect you'd think that 2am outside your window would not be OK.

I am not the sound police, nor do I play one on tv.  But since you ask, the answer is simple.  It depends.  If you live or ride through a community that enforces a noise ordinance you'd better watch it.  But that's not the real issue.  The problem is that a lot of people (more non-riders than riders) are fed up with open pipes and the noise.  They demand that their town council or equivalent do something about it and then you see laws like NY's "must have the EPA stamped tag on the exhaust" or you get a ticket.  Somehow, I don't see that setting off car alarms is going to make things better down the road.

Out in the open, make as much noise as you want, there's no one there to hear it.  But when others are around a little consideration will go a long way.

Speedevil, an update on the  "NY's 'must have the EPA stamped tag on the exhaust' or you get a ticket."  status.  The bill was laid over in committee.  It been rewritten, bit is still in committee, minus 5 of the original 12 sponsors.  This is a result of the hard work of the NY motorcycle community, including Industrialgrrrl and 2001cromo on this board and myself.  Extra credit for Industrialgrrrl .   

[speedevil]

Speedevil, an update on the  "NY's 'must have the EPA stamped tag on the exhaust' or you get a ticket."  status.  The bill was laid over in committee.  It been rewritten, bit is still in committee, minus 5 of the original 12 sponsors.  This is a result of the hard work of the NY motorcycle community, including Industrialgrrrl and 2001cromo on this board and myself.  Extra credit for Industrialgrrrl .   

That's good news and perhaps a little common sense has been injected into the process in NY.

However, the gorilla in the room is that people running open pipes, some of them members of this forum, caused the law to be proposed in the first place.

There seem to be two favorite excuses:

1. I like it, so F*** everyone else.  I call short-sighted and selfish on this one.

2. Loud pipes save lives.  I call B***SH*T on this one.

Wake up people.  There are way more non-riding voters than riding voters.  Just like I said a few posts back - a little consideration will go a long way.

If you think I'm wrong - just look at what happened in Myrtle Beach.

[NFG]

There seem to be two favorite excuses:

1. I like it, so F*** everyone else.  I call short-sighted and selfish on this one.

2. Loud pipes save lives.  I call B***SH*T on this one.

Well, I'm a new guy here and I've only had my bike for ~4 weeks so I'm prepared to accept I don't know what I'm talking about, but I can tell you beyond any doubt that my pipes get me noticed.  I would question the motives of anyone here who suggests being noticed while riding isn't a good thing. 

I can't tell if you're raging at loud pipes in general, or if you're specifically raging at people in this thread whose opinions differ from yours.  I have to believe I'm not the target of the evil rage here.  My pipes are loud and my pipes are legal. 

As for Myrtle Beach, perhaps you'd be kind enough to link to whatever happened there?  A search of this forum (and the internet in general) brought up nothing that advances your point.

That said...  I've noticed there are two kinds of people in this thread: people with 'evil' in their names who have very distinct opinions and a blunt way of stating them, and everyone else. 

[speedevil]

My pipes are loud and my pipes are legal.

As for Myrtle Beach, perhaps you'd be kind enough to link to whatever happened there?  A search of this forum (and the internet in general) brought up nothing that advances your point.

No one is raging here.  I'm simply making the point that the actions of a few riders will ultimately affect all of us.  Here's your link to the Myrtle Beach ordinances that shut down bike week there.

http://myrtlebeachbikerinfo.com/ordinances.html

Do you have a link to a study or statistics that prove "loud pipes save lives?"  Absent evidence to the contrary, I would simply counter your statement with "loud pipes just p*ss people off."

I believe the EPA rules for motorcycle exhaust noise set a maximum of 80dBA but I don't know the distance from the end of the muffler that the measurement must be taken.  If your loud and legal pipes exceed this number or they are not EPA-certified for your make, model, and year, then they are not legal, despite your claims to the contrary.

My Termis probably can exceed this sound level, but I don't intentionally ride that way; I live out in the country; and I don't make any claim that my pipes are legal.  I really like the sound out of the Termis, but if faced with the choice of riding with stock pipes or not riding at all, I will choose stock pipes.

Edit: added the EPA-certified text

[Mad Duc]

It boils down to this: Some people are irresponsible assholes and will do whatever they want. If they do it enough then the government comes along and takes away our toys.

[NAKID]

I believe the EPA rules for motorcycle exhaust noise set a maximum of 80dBA but I don't know the distance from the end of the muffler that the measurement must be taken.  If your loud and legal pipes exceed this number, then they are not legal, despite your claims to the contrary.

Actually, that's not correct. Those regulations are only for the manufacturer to be able to sell the vehicle and has no bearing on the end consumer.

[speedevil]

Actually, that's not correct. Those regulations are only for the manufacturer to be able to sell the vehicle and has no bearing on the end consumer.

Um, no.  The regulations are for the manufacturers to sell motorcycles that can be licensed for use on public streets.  That is why aftermarket exhausts (with very few exceptions) say "for off-road use only."

We may choose to ignore the "off-road" admonition, but as soon as you install an "off-road" exhaust on a licensed-for the-street motorcycle it's not legal any longer.  That's the basis for a lot of towns/cities enacting the "show the label" laws.  The EPA is not going to enforce this in every town/city but it is a litmus test for a EPA-approved exhaust system.

Some of us also choose to remove the evap canister, which is also illegal.

We each pick our own poison, I guess.

[KnightofNi]

i used to be in the loud pipes save lives category.

then one of mine got a dent in it and eventually broke. i had no other form of transport so i ran the midpipes with no baffles of any kind for about 2 weeks while iw as waiting for my new exhaust to come in.

the bike was more than obnoxiously loud. i would shake the windows of my house at idle from 50 ft away. i couldn't hear anything over the exhaust noise, even the wind noise as i rode.

i still had people pulling into me, cutting me off, and even stepping off curbs and walking right in front of me. it was then that i realized that most people that don't see you, won't see you no matter how loud your bike is. the only people more apt to notice you are the ones that are annoyed by the noise

now i ride with pipes that are quieter than my old ones(before they broke), but still have the throaty rumble i like.

[NAKID]

Um, no.  The regulations are for the manufacturers to sell motorcycles that can be licensed for use on public streets.  That is why aftermarket exhausts (with very few exceptions) say "for off-road use only."

We may choose to ignore the "off-road" admonition, but as soon as you install an "off-road" exhaust on a licensed-for the-street motorcycle it's not legal any longer.  That's the basis for a lot of towns/cities enacting the "show the label" laws.  The EPA is not going to enforce this in every town/city but it is a litmus test for a EPA-approved exhaust system.

Some of us also choose to remove the evap canister, which is also illegal.

We each pick our own poison, I guess.

Aftermarket exhausts do not need to meet the 80dB level to be legal. There are looser regs for that. The reason most aftermarket exhausts don't have epa stamps on them is because they don't bother to get them tested.

[il d00d]

I can't tell if you're raging at loud pipes in general, or if you're specifically raging at people in this thread whose opinions differ from yours.  I have to believe I'm not the target of the evil rage here.  My pipes are loud and my pipes are legal. 

I am struggling to identify your point, here.  Loud pipes, which aren't actually all that loud, since they are legal, at least within the context of sound ordinances, save lives?  I don't think anyone is actually disagreeing with:
a: having loud, but not obnoxious pipes is OK because, hey, they're cool and they are not offending anyone
b: your being free to believe that they will "get you noticed", and therefore make your ride "safer"

Believe is the operative word here, absent any empirical data (or strong points) to support the idea.

Adding on to what MrIncredible's point, my neighbors say they can identify the rumble of my bike from blocks away - they can hear me because they are standing in their yard, or sitting inside their house.   This is the kind of "noticed" you can reasonably expect from loud pipes.  If they were traveling at 65 MPH, talking on their cell phone, listening to the radio, with the windows up, then I don't even know if being heard above the wind noise, much less being noticed above the din of distractions is actually possible.

Ultimately, if it makes you feel more comfortable as a rider, it is adding safety, as long as your expectations of how and when louder pipes affect your visibility are not too unrealistic.  But loud = noticeable = safer is not really a tenable argument.

Also, welcome to the forum   I think you will find that folks here are not antagonistic (unless antagonized), but they have opinions, sometimes expressed forcefully.  There is an important distinction there...

[Popeye the Sailor]

To reiterate my sig:

"First, a word on motorcycle safety:
If you've put yourself in a position where someone has to see you in order for you to be safe -- to see  you, and to give a f**k -- you've already blown it."

-Neal Stephenson


Getting noticed is not part of being safe. You're invisible-get used to it, work with it.

[pennyrobber]

People mostly notice me as they hear the sonic boom as I pass them on the highway. That, and my open clutch.

[speedevil]

Aftermarket exhausts do not need to meet the 80dB level to be legal. There are looser regs for that. The reason most aftermarket exhausts don't have epa stamps on them is because they don't bother to get them tested.

Um, no.  CFR 205.166 specifies the requirements for motorcycle exhausts.  There are no exceptions for higher sound levels on aftermarket exhausts.  That's why most (not all) aftermarket exhausts specify "for off-road use only."  Read the regs here: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=3f303be20684df7fd3993cc4c0b176e5;rgn=div8;view=text;node=40%3A24.0.1.2.11.5.17.3;idno=40;cc=ecfr

There is no difference or exemption for any type of aftermarket exhaust, even mods to the OEM exhaust cannot legally be made if they cause the noise level to increase.

The reasons for the lack of an EPA stamp do not matter - if the exhaust on a street-registered motorcycle doesn't have one it's not legal.

End of story.

Whether we like it or not is immaterial.  The rules are in place, they just haven't been vigorously enforced and some individual's selfish actions are causing the public to demand enforcement.  I don't want to remove my Termi's any more than anyone else, but if riders continue to be selfish, antisocial a**holes, we may all have to remove them or leave the bikes in the garage.

Some actions do have consequences.