Musings re: SBK Displacement

[junior varsity]

It seems that the smaller manufacturers, in my opinion, are less interested in coaxing more power of the motors in existing displacement categories. I am not really all that impressed with simply raising the displacement to get more power. At some point you end up with a 1300/1400cc kawibusa in the name of power. Follow with me for a second:

Ducati jumps in with both feet into SBK market:

Ducati 851.

Ducati 888. (926 big bore available I'm aware)

Ducati 916.

Somewhere in here is the 955.

--> Ducati 996: Ducati 998
----> Ducati 748 (Midweight. Kit to bump displacement to 853cc. Compare with Ducati 851 superbike which was not the 'midweight' but was the top dog).

Ducati 999 and 749

Enter the 1098 and 848 (Compare displacement 848 "middleweight" and 851/888 "big" bikes of yesteryear)


Enter 1198


To me it seems like the middle weight class disappeared when the 748 bike entered the market frequently kitted to 853cc. That's no middle weight, by Ducati's own standards (where the 851 wasn't a middle weight, it was the big one). I just see a large gap in the production categories that was or is best answered by something like the Mito 500. It would be nice to have a little bit more choice in the faired "superbikes", especially ones which fit into some sort of pre-existing class.

[Ducatl]

It probably has something to do with reliability and cost, increasing the power output of a lower displacement motor to compete with larger competition seems like it would have its downfalls in both performance reliability and marketing for the bikes themselves.  That coupled with the difficult time that bike manufacturers are already having with moving bikes I doubt they're aiming to hit a niche market of riders who actually want to sacrifice displacement for weight and highly streetable power.

[derby]

Follow with me for a second:

i follow you, but you overlook the importance of homologation requirements for supersport/stock/bike racing.

many of those displacement increases were a factor of not being able to wring enough (reliable) power out of the previous displacement.

the 1098/1198 is a prime example compared to the on-the-verge-of-grenading 999 superbike (in true race trim).

[junior varsity]

I'm more specifically looking at the

Ducati 851/888 compared with the 748->853 and the 848.

"Other" manufacturers are offering a 600, a 750 and a 1000. The 848 goes ... where?

I'd like one of the eye-tallion manufacturers to produce and market something that nicely fits in the niche that Mito 500 or so would be. You've got 250 aprilias, and then essentially it goes to litre bikes. The 848 is far closer to a litre bike than a 600, let alone a 500.

[Triple J]

The 848 is far closer to a litre bike than a 600, let alone a 500.

Why? I'd say the 848 is a direct competitor to the Japanese 600s, and the Triumph 675. A litre bike would stomp them.

Unless you're talking price?

[junior varsity]

Price and power. The Duc "750's" were, seems to me, a more logical competitor to the 600's. the 848 is 250cc's larger in displacement. That's like 40%

[derby]

"Other" manufacturers are offering a 600, a 750 and a 1000. The 848 goes ... where?

what are these other manufacturers you speak of?

yamaha built an expensive, homologation-only r7 and abandoned it when superbike went to 1000cc.

honda's 750cc superbike was also an expensive, homologation-only model. they did have a project to design a "consumer" 750cc bike, but that ended up becoming the 900rr and the 750cc model was never built.

kawasaki only kept the zx7 in the lineup until superbike went to 1000cc.

suzuki is the only manufacturer that has consistently built and developed a 750cc platform.

I'd like one of the eye-tallion manufacturers to produce and market something that nicely fits in the niche that Mito 500 or so would be. You've got 250 aprilias, and then essentially it goes to litre bikes. The 848 is far closer to a litre bike than a 600, let alone a 500.

the problem with developing bikes like that, at least for the american market, is that they cost just as much as big bikes and that diminishes the market for them.

i'd love to own a modern light/midweight single or twin, but common sense gets in the way when people start talking prices.

[Triple J]

Price and power. The Duc "750's" were, seems to me, a more logical competitor to the 600's. the 848 is 250cc's larger in displacement. That's like 40%

Price I can see...but Ducs always cost more than their Japanese equivalents.

848 power is closer to the 600s than the 1000s. Displacement isn't all that important, given the differences between an in-line 4 and a V-twin.

[mikeb]

the 848 is 250cc's larger in displacement. That's like 40%

Your logic would make sense if you were comparing two inline 4's.  But you are talking apples and oranges.

The 848 makes about 116 hp at the wheel.  The 600's make about 110 or so.  A liter bike makes about 150+.

So the 848 and 600's are within 10 hp to each other.  A liter bike has an easy 35 hp on either one.

[junior varsity]

No no no, my beef is with the 848 not cranking out sufficient power for its displacement (at a reported 130ish). The 888 (851cc) was making the same power... in 1994 (Strada: 110). The 851 was making almost (Strada: 102) this is 1989. Those are "ancient" motorcycles by today's superbike standards.

Here's what I'm trying to say, the manufacturer in this case Ducati, desires to raise the power of the middle weight motorcycle. Instead of doing that, they've essentially just subbed in the motor from the older heavy weight bike (disclaimer: obviously the 848 engine is new, and superior to the 851/888 motor). Displacement-wise, I'm speaking.

I referenced "Bikez" for the power, and if those are actually being too favorable, fair enough. I also recall that there may have been a change in which hp figure was reported (at the wheel or engine bhp)

My underlying question is "Where did the middleweights/lightweights go?"

[mikeb]

According to this link for the 1994 888 it made 110 hp.  That'd be at the crank.  So with drivetrain loss (some say 15%) that'd be 93.5 hp.

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/ducati_888_sp_0_strada_1994.php

The 848 makes 134 hp at the crank....minus the same 15% and that's 114 hp.

This link to the Ducati 996 shows it only made 106.8 hp.  

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_22.html


So the 848 makes more power than the 996.....with less displacement.  So the motors are getting more efficient.  Not less....



Your numbers are off......

[mikeb]

My underlying question is "Where did the middleweights/lightweights go?"

As the top of the heap moved up....750's to 1000's for inlines and from 1000 to 1198 for the twins.  The middle weight moved up too.  The middle weight is the GSXR 750.  And the lightweight is the 600.

[junior varsity]

How do we know that one was at the Crank? Haven't they changed what was reported? I recall there was a change in the advertising at some point, similar to the change in weights reported from wet to dry, etc.

According to this link for the 1994 888 it made 110 hp.  That'd be at the crank.  So with drivetrain loss (some say 15%) that'd be 93.5 hp.
http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/ducati_888_sp_0_strada_1994.php
The 848 makes 134 hp at the crank....minus the same 15% and that's 114 hp.
This link to the Ducati 996 shows it only made 106.8 hp. 
http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_22.html
So the 848 makes more power than the 996.....with less displacement.  So the motors are getting more efficient.  Not less....

I've got the 996 listed at around 112-116. There sees to be lots of discrepancy across the board. I'll have to grab the ol' Falloon book and see what it says. 

[Speeddog]

Or, go here:

http://www.bikeboy.org/performance.html

Added benefit is they're all on the same dyno, AFAIK, and Brad knows how to write about 'em. 

No 848, but I think all the rest of your list is there.
I was looking around a while back, and stock 848's seem to go about 117-119HP at the rear wheel.

[junior varsity]

I guess my thoughts are, if you are looking at the 848, why not go up to the 1098/1198? Sure its more power, but the 848 isn't a really lacking the same (not wheezy like the 748 was accused of being), so you might as well go balls-to-the-wall if you are going to buy a Ducati. The argument against this would be $$$, its not down on power or displacement enough to be a "superbike in moderation". Until the Dark Model just debuted, which makes more sense to me than many of the other current offerings, I just didn't really see the point. "848" isn't all that far from the big leaguers, and the price isn't all that far off.

I suppose on the other hand, The money you save when buying an 848 over a 1098 could be reinvested in suspension upgrades, etc, which you might want to do anyhow on the 1098. Kind of like making your own "S" model.