cross country trip on an electric bike ended by cager

[junior varsity]

unrelated:

Note that the rider is charging his vehicle in the hotel/motel room.

I am going to go on and take eventual issue with this type of conduct and electric vehicles.

Cars/Bikes/etc take fuel for the engine to run. I purchase gasoline at a 'filling station'.

Electric vehicle take 'fuel' for the motor to run. This electricity is provided by a wall outlet. Somebody has to pay for this. Charging large batteries uses a large quantity of energy. This is paid for by the building tenant, such as a home owner for their private home energy use, or the hotel/motel in this situation. (We need not point at the silliness of 'green' claims related to electric vehicles since fossil fuels are being burned to heat water vapor to turn turbines to provide electricity, some of which is used to charge those batteries. That's robbing-peter-to-pay-paul argument might belong better in the E-15 thread, or elsewhere.)

The 'beef' here is that, as use like this increases, the cost is going to get passed along to the other hotel patrons. Perhaps ones that don't have an electric car or bike, for whatever reason. Here's to hoping the electric cars of the future require a different voltage or outlet so they can't just go around stealing power from others and have to legitimately pay for it the same way I have to pay for fuel for my motorcycle/car.

[Drjones]

As soon as businesses see electric vehicles become more than a novelty they'll wise up and either prohibit charging or demand payment for use of thier outlets.  That of course could end up opening up a whole other can of liability worms, so yeah any notion of mass use of electric vehicles (or hydrogen vehicles for that matter) will have to jump the supporting infrastructure hurdle.

[mikeb]

(We need not point at the silliness of 'green' claims related to electric vehicles since fossil fuels are being burned to heat water vapor to turn turbines to provide electricity, some of which is used to charge those batteries. That's robbing-peter-to-pay-paul argument might belong better in the E-15 thread, or elsewhere.)

Lets follow that line of thinking in another direction.  If the production of fuel is held against the vehicle then add the production, and distribution, of gas to the tailpipe of gas powered cars.  After all critics of the electric car point out electricity doesn't grow on trees.  Well, where do you think gas comes from?  The use of fossil fuels is being held against the electric vehicle but the production cost, and distribution cost to truck it to filling stations, doesn't count against gas cars?

If fuel and vehicle are tied together you have to do it across the board.....

[junior varsity]

no, i already do 'do it across the board' with my gasoline vehicle. i don't like that people forget those costs when looking at "alternative fuel" vehicles.

electricity isn't free. There's is a cost. I sure as hell don't want to pay that cost for somebody else (unless, say, they want to equally fund my fuel consumption needs)

[mikeb]

no, i already do 'do it across the board' with my gasoline vehicle. i don't like that people forget those costs when looking at "alternative fuel" vehicles.

That's cool.  Most critics use that line of thinking then never apply it to gas cars.  I prefer to separate fuel from vehicle.  Because it's almost impossible to quantify the combined fuel/vehicle footprint.

 

electricity isn't free. There's is a cost. I sure as hell don't want to pay that cost for somebody else (unless, say, they want to equally fund my fuel consumption needs)

I don't think you'll have to worry about cost.  By time electric vehicles are that popular infrastructure will be in place to take care of that.  Nobody wants to pay for their neighbors fuel comsumption.

[junior varsity]

I heard an interesting take on this situation recently, regarding fueling up.

Gas stations aren't fans of 'lectric cars, not because they don't provide electricity (they could) but because of the slow turn-around. Electric cars take a while to charge, unlike a quick gas fillup.

Enter fast food companies, like our friends at the McDonalds or perhaps a Sonic - who could offer the 'fill up' while you were eating, since you'll be sitting there for a bit anyhow.

Interesting change in marketing strategies would be on the horizon.

[mikeb]

Enter fast food companies, like our friends at the McDonalds or perhaps a Sonic - who could offer the 'fill up' while you were eating, since you'll be sitting there for a bit anyhow.

Interesting change in marketing strategies would be on the horizon.

That's pretty amazing.  I hadn't even thought of that.  Because the one thing that would hamper switching to electric cars is the refuel time.  I don't mind 50 miles per charge.  It's having to sit for half an hour to do it that would suck.

I saw a documentary titled "Who Killed The Electric Car" about the Ford EV1.  It would seem the biggest, or one of the biggest factors at play, is simply the resistance to change.  A lot of which is based on who would stand to lose $$$ in the deal.

[LowThudd]

saw a documentary titled "Who Killed The Electric Car" about the Ford EV1.  It would seem the biggest, or one of the biggest factors at play, is simply the resistance to change.  A lot of which is based on who would stand to lose $$$ in the deal.

That's the GM EV1. There are new sources on the horizon for electricity. They are all ready burning switchgrass and sugar cane leftovers in Florida. In fact ALL coal burning powerplants could burn 80% biomass without any change to the equipment. That is the fact. But they are resistent to change because the power plants are directly tied to the coal industry. Something has to change more than just the vehicles. I agree, fossil fuel=fossil fuel...CURRENTLY. But coal is infinite, and things will inevidably change soon. It would be foolish to continue at our current rate of coal consumption and then have nothing at all 100 or so years from now.

[junior varsity]

Its interesting driving back roads in West TN when I go back home now. There's very little cotton, but there is lots of switchgrass

[gregrnel]

Say whatever you want about the Enertia, going 15000 miles on about $85 worth of electricity=mega efficiency. That $85 worth of electricity has to be much easier on the environment than 300 gallons of gasoline burned by a 50MPG vehicle. Plus the Enertia is manufactured largely from recycled materials, I can't find any way to criticize this vehicle as a great daily commuter.

[LowThudd]

Say whatever you want about the Enertia, going 15000 miles on about $85 worth of electricity=mega efficiency. That $85 worth of electricity has to be much easier on the environment than 300 gallons of gasoline burned by a 50MPG vehicle. Plus the Enertia is manufactured largely from recycled materials, I can't find any way to criticize this vehicle as a great daily commuter.

Very cool vehicle indeed. With coal burning powerplants however, they are the largest producers of CO2 that we have. Followed closely by airplanes, big trucks and busses. We need cleaner ways to get electricity if the change is too be made. Very true that he made an amazing journey, unfortunately ending tragically. I still believe, however that the Enertia is unsuited for a highway like the I5.

[junior varsity]

...are the largest producers of CO2 that we have. We need cleaner ways to get electricity if the change is too be made.

...think its less of a priority now thanks to al gore's invention being the undoing of al gore's pet project.

[LowThudd]

...think its less of a priority now thanks to al gore's invention being the undoing of al gore's pet project.

  LOL. Yea, I believe he invented the internet too. Funny...in 1998 a 20 year study on the on the use of algae for biofuel rolled accross the presidents desk and Gore has never mentioned it. I guess it became important to him once the "chad" count came in.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24190.pdf

[Drjones]

Al Gore

[il d00d]

The 'beef' here is that, as use like this increases, the cost is going to get passed along to the other hotel patrons. Perhaps ones that don't have an electric car or bike, for whatever reason. Here's to hoping the electric cars of the future require a different voltage or outlet so they can't just go around stealing power from others and have to legitimately pay for it the same way I have to pay for fuel for my motorcycle/car.

It is a good point, and I was curious, so I tried to get some idea of how much power is consumed during a recharge.  I am lazy, so I am going with cost:  Brammo claims a charge cost of about 35 cents for the four hour cycle.   According to this calculator, that's like leaving the coffee maker in the room on for the same amount of time.

I have heard a lot about switchgrass lately - that seemed promising a few years ago, but ERoEI wasn't working out quite yet. Anything new on that front?  Cellulosic ethanol seems pretty promising, a lot of scientists seem to be a few years away from turning corn cobs into fuel.