Top end Rebuild

[garrehz]

Hey guys, its looking like my baby might need a top end rebuild. does anyone know the price im looking at and a good workshop in perth to do it?

[loony888]

i'm not in perth so i can't help with a workshop but that's a very open ended question. what makes you think it needs a rebuild?

[garrehz]

cheers for the reply loony.

I put it in the workshop because it was running really rough and im no mechanic so id rather pay someone else to do it. Basically it had fouled a plug and he replaced it all good. but he said when they had it on the stand it was burning alot of oil and he thinks its running way rougher than normal. Then I was told it will most likely seize if I kept riding it the way it is and im probably looking at a top end rebuild.

I was told they wouldnt do it as they dont like to touch dukes and its best to take it to a specialist (no sh**t)

So yeah thats why I think it needs one. As I said im not mechanically minded so I would not know if im being told a bunch of crap or not

Anyway any help is appreciated, its a 96' Monster 900M

[monsta]

go see Justin at 'Pro Twin' in Malaga.   ph 92492414
top fella and he wont bullshit ya! 
tell him Geoff sent ya!   

[loony888]

have you noticed a lot of oil consumption? how many klms are on it? before you let anyone tear into it get a compression test done, that will tell you easily whether it' s normal wear and tear, or something is broken. it can also tell whether the oil consumption is from valve stem wear or piston ring/bore wear.
Not sure where malaga is to you, but being referred to a mechanic is usually a good sign and if he's a no bullshit guy probably worth the effort to get there.
the comment about it seizing is a bit odd, did they check the oil at the window? top it up? if they replaced the plugs and it runs better but still rough did they balance the carbs/throttle bodies?
If they prefer to steer clear of ducatis they probably have very little experience with them and taking it somewhere that knows , like Pro Twin according to monsta, may mean it turns out to just needing a tune and service. I'd definitely tell him geoff sent you, and the replaced fouled plug but aside from that let him diagnose it and see what he says about a fix.

paul

[Mr.S2R]

have you noticed a lot of oil consumption? how many klms are on it? before you let anyone tear into it get a compression test done, that will tell you easily whether it' s normal wear and tear, or something is broken. it can also tell whether the oil consumption is from valve stem wear or piston ring/bore wear.
paul

loony888 - could this also be to do with belts? out of adjustment and valves not adjusted either.  2 valves are meant to have their belts changed every 4 years or 20,000km (probably a lot of different opinions on this).

Not sure where malaga is to you, but being referred to a mechanic is usually a good sign and if he's a no bullshit guy probably worth the effort to get there.
the comment about it seizing is a bit odd, did they check the oil at the window? top it up? if they replaced the plugs and it runs better but still rough did they balance the carbs/throttle bodies?
If they prefer to steer clear of ducatis they probably have very little experience with them and taking it somewhere that knows , like Pro Twin according to monsta, may mean it turns out to just needing a tune and service. I'd definitely tell him geoff sent you, and the replaced fouled plug but aside from that let him diagnose it and see what he says about a fix.

paul

+1 on that - no price on people that know their stuff - and the ride back my be worth it once it is in tune and fixed!  

[Betty]

2 valves are meant to have their belts changed every 4 years or 20,000km (probably a lot of different opinions on this).

Can I ask where that advice is coming from? I keep hearing stringent advice not to go beyond two years.

Although I understand with the newer bikes they have extended service intervals and now miraculously predict longer belt life expectancy (with the same belts/engines as they have been using for years) ... didn't think it would be 4 years though.

[loony888]

yep betty is right, the service interval is 2 years or 20k whichever comes first up to 2007 i think. the newer bikes with their servicing schedule looking cheaper is basically extended intervals, that said, there's no way i'd leave oil in my bike for 10k, i change mine every 3 or so, but it does get a hiding.

Mr S2R, yep could be a stripped belt and moved timing, could be almost anything, i try and refrain from trying to diagnose a problem here, just not possible, if it's right it's probably luck more than anything else. I asked about the consumption mainly because of the "seizing" comment and really, before any teardown a compression check is a good way of establishing a clearer picture for the owner, can't ride it away if it's in bits and the quote has gone sky high! of course, a decent mechanic will be ripping the cam belt covers off and turning it over on the starter after a cursory check of the belts condition, but i imagine there will be a lot of things looked at depending on the symptoms showing when the bike gets to the workshop. valve adjustment normally gets tighter and therefore quieter as it wears unless some hamfisted wannabe has adjusted them wrong, then anything could be going on, ruined cam lobes even.
doesn't sound like the original workshop knew much about ducatis though, and i'd be asking up front what experience they had if i had to use an unknown shop.
paul

[Mr.S2R]

Can I ask where that advice is coming from? I keep hearing stringent advice not to go beyond two years.

from a bike shop here in Adelaide - very good Ducati experience for bevels and two valve belts...

Mind you I must check my receipts - my 2006 S2R is probably due for belts irrespective as it is over both 2 or 4 yrs (it has only done 8200 kms).

yep betty is right, the service interval is 2 years or 20k whichever comes first up to 2007 i think. the newer bikes with their servicing schedule looking cheaper is basically extended intervals, that said, there's no way i'd leave oil in my bike for 10k, i change mine every 3 or so, but it does get a hiding.

Mr S2R, yep could be a stripped belt and moved timing, could be almost anything, i try and refrain from trying to diagnose a problem here, just not possible, if it's right it's probably luck more than anything else. I asked about the consumption mainly because of the "seizing" comment and really, before any teardown a compression check is a good way of establishing a clearer picture for the owner, can't ride it away if it's in bits and the quote has gone sky high! of course, a decent mechanic will be ripping the cam belt covers off and turning it over on the starter after a cursory check of the belts condition, but i imagine there will be a lot of things looked at depending on the symptoms showing when the bike gets to the workshop. valve adjustment normally gets tighter and therefore quieter as it wears unless some hamfisted wannabe has adjusted them wrong, then anything could be going on, ruined cam lobes even.
doesn't sound like the original workshop knew much about ducatis though, and i'd be asking up front what experience they had if i had to use an unknown shop.
paul

Yeah I agree loony with trying to diagnose a problem on here where there is a lack of information - like it has been said take it to a recommended (hopefully good) mechanic.  I asked the question about belts was partially for my own enlightenment - thanks.  Hopefully this is not a top end rebuild for garrehz.

Same said bike shop I mentioned above had a put in new belts and was a tooth out on my mates 998 - he was not happy.  On the other hand I have never had an issue with any of the work they have performed on my Pantahs. 

[brad black]

none of the belt intervals have changed in the schedules i've seen.  anyone got a 2009 or 2010 book for their new monster?

[bigiain]

Basically it had fouled a plug and he replaced it all good. but he said when they had it on the stand it was burning alot of oil and he thinks its running way rougher than normal. Then I was told it will most likely seize if I kept riding it the way it is and im probably looking at a top end rebuild.

I was told they wouldnt do it as they dont like to touch dukes and its best to take it to a specialist (no sh**t)

<snip>

Anyway any help is appreciated, its a 96' Monster 900M

Ummmm, I'd be taking it to someone who knows Ducatis before I decided it needed a top end rebuild based on their advice...

How many km has it done? If your up over 50,000km, my bet is the fouled plug and rough running is due to ovaled out needle jets, and without wanting to cast aspersions on the diagnostic skills of whoever you took it too, I'd bet reasonable money that their "burning oil on the stand" is also needle jet related and is actually running way too rich rather than burning oil.

Things to look for to confirm it's the needle jets: Does it run rough and cough and splutter a bit after a minute or two at cruise on partial throttle at ~70-90kmh, then get better for a while if you give if a big handful of throttle to "clear it out"? If it does, try running a tank of "high density" PULP like Shell Vortex or Mobil 8000, it should get _worse_ because the higher density fuel wil make it run even richer (or, if that's what you usually run, try a regular non-ethanol 95 or 92 octane unleaded and see if it gets better as the less dense fuel leans it out slightly). Is it using significantly more fuel than expected - you should be getting over 200km till reserve, and if you calculate the range till empty based on a 16.5L tank you should get ~300km per tank - if you're getting less than 250km/tank you definitely need new needle jets (assuming you've got no engine mods beyond pipes and a jetkit... And those numbers are based on what my 750 gets, but I'm retty sure the 900 shouldn't use enough more for the 300/250km range estimate to not still work as a reasonable diagnostic)

Unless you get unlucky with valve guides or stem seals, you're pretty unlikely to need to touch the topend with less than 150 or 200,000km on it. The nikasil bores with iron rings just don't wear out - maybe get a compression test done as per Looney's suggestion to rule out a ring or valve seal problem, but it's uncommon - certainly not the _first_ thing you'd suspect if the bikes running a little rough. I've got ~265,000km on mine now without touching the heads, but with new needle jets installed every 50 or 60,000km (it did get new rings at around 80,000km when it was open for a main bearing problem, but I didn't touch anything in the heads - it's got 265000km and 11 year old valves and guides and stem seals in it).

My guess is you need ~$100 worth of needle jets and an afternoon's worth of installing them or a few hours of workshop time if you pay a pro to do it - Brad tells me he can change needlejets without pulling the carbs off - there's no way my great big hands could get in there to do that, I pull the tank, battery, electrics, airbox, and carbs to change them, so it's most of an afternoons work in my shed... Oh, and if you attack it yourself, make sure you've got an impact driver on hand - it the float bowl screws have never been out of the carbs on your '96 model, they're gonna be seized in pretty good (steel screws in alloy castings) - a lot of penetrating oil, patience, perhaps some gentle heat, and a careful approach will be required.
 
big

[monstermick58]

have you noticed a lot of oil consumption? how many klms are on it? before you let anyone tear into it get a compression test done, that will tell you easily whether it' s normal wear and tear, or something is broken. it can also tell whether the oil consumption is from valve stem wear or piston ring/bore wear.
Not sure where malaga is to you, but being referred to a mechanic is usually a good sign and if he's a no bullshit guy probably worth the effort to get there.
the comment about it seizing is a bit odd, did they check the oil at the window? top it up? if they replaced the plugs and it runs better but still rough did they balance the carbs/throttle bodies?
If they prefer to steer clear of ducatis they probably have very little experience with them and taking it somewhere that knows , like Pro Twin according to monsta, may mean it turns out to just needing a tune and service. I'd definitely tell him geoff sent you, and the replaced fouled plug but aside from that let him diagnose it and see what he says about a fix.

paul

+1

Ummmm, I'd be taking it to someone who knows Ducatis before I decided it needed a top end rebuild based on their advice...

How many km has it done? If your up over 50,000km, my bet is the fouled plug and rough running is due to ovaled out needle jets, and without wanting to cast aspersions on the diagnostic skills of whoever you took it too, I'd bet reasonable money that their "burning oil on the stand" is also needle jet related and is actually running way too rich rather than burning oil.

Things to look for to confirm it's the needle jets: Does it run rough and cough and splutter a bit after a minute or two at cruise on partial throttle at ~70-90kmh, then get better for a while if you give if a big handful of throttle to "clear it out"? If it does, try running a tank of "high density" PULP like Shell Vortex or Mobil 8000, it should get _worse_ because the higher density fuel wil make it run even richer (or, if that's what you usually run, try a regular non-ethanol 95 or 92 octane unleaded and see if it gets better as the less dense fuel leans it out slightly). Is it using significantly more fuel than expected - you should be getting over 200km till reserve, and if you calculate the range till empty based on a 16.5L tank you should get ~300km per tank - if you're getting less than 250km/tank you definitely need new needle jets (assuming you've got no engine mods beyond pipes and a jetkit... And those numbers are based on what my 750 gets, but I'm retty sure the 900 shouldn't use enough more for the 300/250km range estimate to not still work as a reasonable diagnostic)

Unless you get unlucky with valve guides or stem seals, you're pretty unlikely to need to touch the topend with less than 150 or 200,000km on it. The nikasil bores with iron rings just don't wear out - maybe get a compression test done as per Looney's suggestion to rule out a ring or valve seal problem, but it's uncommon - certainly not the _first_ thing you'd suspect if the bikes running a little rough. I've got ~265,000km on mine now without touching the heads, but with new needle jets installed every 50 or 60,000km (it did get new rings at around 80,000km when it was open for a main bearing problem, but I didn't touch anything in the heads - it's got 265000km and 11 year old valves and guides and stem seals in it).

My guess is you need ~$100 worth of needle jets and an afternoon's worth of installing them or a few hours of workshop time if you pay a pro to do it - Brad tells me he can change needlejets without pulling the carbs off - there's no way my great big hands could get in there to do that, I pull the tank, battery, electrics, airbox, and carbs to change them, so it's most of an afternoons work in my shed... Oh, and if you attack it yourself, make sure you've got an impact driver on hand - it the float bowl screws have never been out of the carbs on your '96 model, they're gonna be seized in pretty good (steel screws in alloy castings) - a lot of penetrating oil, patience, perhaps some gentle heat, and a careful approach will be required.
 
big

another +1

Being air cooled they will burn some oil, the only reason my Monster is getting a rebuild is because I have the  "W" heads and I want the big bore kit and a set of flat slides, but yeah, get someone that knows what they are doing, mine? 1997 M900




                                   Mmick

[goldFiSh]

Being air cooled they will burn some oil, the only reason my Monster is getting a rebuild is because I have the  "W" heads and I want the big bore kit and a set of flat slides, but yeah, get someone that knows what they are doing, mine? 1997 M900

                                   Mmick

<slight threadjack>
I for one can't wait to see mmicks bike leave me in its dust with a 944 kit and fcrs (and while you're there maybe some SS or V2 torque cams that are going cheap on ebay)  

[monstermick58]

<slight threadjack>
I for one can't wait to see mmicks bike leave me in its dust with a 944 kit and fcrs (and while you're there maybe some SS or V2 torque cams that are going cheap on ebay) 

Yeah - I saw those, tempting 





                         Mmick

[garrehz]

Hey guys, cheers for the replies. I am def going to take all this on board and when she is all on tune maybe we can organize a wa monster cruise?