Lane splitting in Maricopa co.

[hoyden]

<mini rant>
While I'm glad progress is being made with this bill, I find it a bit ridiculous that it's only valid for one year. One year is barely enough time for the general driving population to get comfortable to this. Yeah, it'll be more common, but I don't think that's long enough for lane splitting to become considered the norm.
</mini rant>

[Michael]

Here's a video of the French protest.

I can't believe how many motorcycles there are. 

Manifestation FFMC Paris 13/03/2010

[MostroNero]

I love the style of those two French protests: "You want it, you got it!" Killed the freeway, killed the subway. 

[Monster Dave]

The French know how to protest because they protest just about every few months. It really doesn't get them very much, but it does certainly impact daily life.

I think it's become a part of their lives, which may be why the government doesn't crack down too harshly on them.

[hoyden]

The French know how to protest because they protest just about every few months. It really doesn't get them very much, but it does certainly impact daily life.

I think it's become a part of their lives, which may be why the government doesn't crack down too harshly on them.

Actually, it did get them "very much" :
"A happy outcome: Belotti has met with the FFMC and is re-considering the restrictions on lane-splitting."

Perhaps Belotti will still have the ban, but obviously the protests had a huge impact within the Transport Ministry.

(from the article Pennyrobber posted: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/30march10_lanesplitting.htm )

[IZ]

The French know how to protest because they protest just about every few months. It really doesn't get them very much, but it does certainly impact daily life.

Uh huh ^

I had to cut my trip to the Cote de Azur a day early to catch a train to Bologna ASAP!  It was rumored the next morning the French were going on strike and they did.  Luckily, had the inside scoop or wouldn't have made the Duc ride.   

[MostroNero]

Finally! This thing is moving again. It went into Senate Rules Committee today.  Hopefully it'll whisk on through now like it did in the House.

[Monster Dave]

Finally! This thing is moving again. It went into Senate Rules Committee today.  Hopefully it'll whisk on through now like it did in the House.

I'm a bit mixed on this being a good idea or not - for all the obvious reasons. I'd really like to see this happen, but at the same time the risk to us as riders of being in an accident will increase exponentially.

I just hate to see us put into a higher risk category for accidents for a convenience. On the flip side, when it's 120 degrees outside, I'll be equally happy that I don't have to sit and roast while traffic is stopped.

[hoyden]

I'm a bit mixed on this being a good idea or not - for all the obvious reasons. I'd really like to see this happen, but at the same time the risk to us as riders of being in an accident will increase exponentially.

I just hate to see us put into a higher risk category for accidents for a convenience. On the flip side, when it's 120 degrees outside, I'll be equally happy that I don't have to sit and roast while traffic is stopped.

Not sure exactly what your "obvious reasons" are or what research supports your statement that "being in an accident will increase exponentially"

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's definition of Lane Splitting, it "may provide a safety benefit".
( http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-nht-212-motorcycle/glossary71-72.html )

The NHSTA also says, based on the famous Hurt Report, that lane splitting "slightly reduces" rear-end accidents, and is worthy of further study due to the possible congestion reduction benefits.

Some further reading -and yes, it's Wikipedia - which some folks don't like as reference material... however, this article is well cited, so might be of use/interest to follow the links and read more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

I lane split for years in the Bay Area and never once had a problem. It is convenient and safe.
Many countries around the world have legal lane splitting. Works for them. 

[Michael]

See, there in lies the problem -- a lot of people assume it's dangerous, when in fact it's actually safer.

The general perception of lane splitting is what will make it hard for it to come into law and be accepted by the public.

[Monster Dave]

My comment wasn't based on "research" or references from Wiki but rather inference based on observed driving habits of automobile drivers in Phoenix. Given your point of view Hoyden, it sounds as though you're coming from a perspective and place where lane splitting has been established for quite some time - established as a norm for both motorcyclists and motorists.

Were lane splitting to be made lawful in Arizona, and if you think about the time required for the "trickle down effect" to take place effectively, I would submit that we'd be looking at the better part of 5 years before motorists and motorcyclists would develop the proper driving habits to safely accommodate lane splitting to the point where you can say that it is a safe practice.

Thus, taking into account the aggressive nature of Phoenix drivers, and factoring in the "new thrill" of lane splitting for motorcyclists, is it not reasonable to infer that accidents will generally increase over the estimated next 5 years until drivers have acclimated to the new law and required skill set for the safe accommodation of motorcyclists that lane split that also offers at the very least a minimal margin for acceptable error?

 

[MostroNero]

Lane splitting in the European nations in which I have experience, and specifically in Germany, where I hold a driver's license, is implemented primarily for rider safety. NHTSA is incorrect in stating that there is a "slight" reduction in likelihood of a rear-end collision, there is a major reduction in the likelihood of being rear-ended. That is why I lane split in AZ now when I'm riding alone or with a my friends that are of the same mind. I, personally, refuse to be put at that risk no matter what our traffic regulations state.

I know three people who have been rear-ended on bikes, the most recent was my dad about five years ago. Two received injuries to the lower back, another got both his knees smashed when the bike was canted sideways and into the car in front of him, by the impact, making his knees the all-beef patties in a car/bike/car Big Mac. After living in Germany for a while, I'd already been irritated that it was illegal for me to take the appropriate action to get out of that "hit zone", and when my father, the 35 year veteran cop, got hit, that was the last straw for me....and him....he lane splits now too...both of us have been stopped for it, but neither of us have gotten a ticket. We're of the mindset that a ticket would just be the cost of business for tending to our own safety.

I get the impression, Dave, that you're picturing flying through 70mph traffic at 85mph, or whipping 50mph through stopped traffic. Read the bill that is linked in the OP of this thread. What the bill is asking for is what I already do, slowly and carefully filtering through stopped traffic, and merging back in as soon as traffic is moving.

[hoyden]

My comment wasn't based on "research" or references from Wiki but rather inference based on observed driving habits of automobile drivers in Phoenix. Given your point of view Hoyden, it sounds as though you're coming from a perspective and place where lane splitting has been established for quite some time - established as a norm for both motorcyclists and motorists.

Were lane splitting to be made lawful in Arizona, and if you think about the time required for the "trickle down effect" to take place effectively, I would submit that we'd be looking at the better part of 5 years before motorists and motorcyclists would develop the proper driving habits to safely accommodate lane splitting to the point where you can say that it is a safe practice.

Thus, taking into account the aggressive nature of Phoenix drivers, and factoring in the "new thrill" of lane splitting for motorcyclists, is it not reasonable to infer that accidents will generally increase over the estimated next 5 years until drivers have acclimated to the new law and required skill set for the safe accommodation of motorcyclists that lane split that also offers at the very least a minimal margin for acceptable error?

Dave,

Fear is a terrible place from which to make decisions.

"Aggressive nature of Phoenix drivers"? Since I moved here I've heard people whine about how awful Phoenix drivers are. Usually from people who have little to no experience driving elsewhere.
Have you ever ridden in Chicago? Narrow, congested streets. Did I mention "narrow"? Riding here is heaven compared to Chicago. Here, you have these wide boulevards with plenty of room to maneuver.  I rode for eight years in Chicago. And lane split there quite a bit (even though it's illegal. See MostroNero's comment above). Chicago's streets are not only narrow to claustrophobic, but riddled with double parked vehicles and lots of indignant attitudes. It's constant video game evasive maneuver driving there. Oh, did I mention the constant pot-hole dodging?

Yeah, it would take time for people here to get used to bikers lane splitting (see my short ranty post on this thread) but "getting used to" does not necessarily equal "more dangerous".

Again, your assumption of a "5 year" time-frame to "develop the proper driving habits" for lane splitting is based in no real proven anything. It sounds to me like you'd rather not have this law passed because of your fears that it would take a while for people to get used to it and your conclusion is that it would be more dangerous in the short term.

I'd wager, from no empirical data, that it would take a far shorter period of time for people to get used to the adjustment, that it wouldn't cause problems, and that it would prove to be a better solution in the long run.

[Monster Dave]

Now hold on just a second here. Everything that has been discussed here has merit - and while I've not discounted the benefits of lane splitting while voicing the saftey concerns, I'm starting to feel backed into a corner for expressing my opinion.

WTF.

Hoyden - your responses read as arrogant, pompous, and judgmental. Get off my back and stop making flash judgement about me and assumptions about my experiences. Who do you think you are calling me both fearful and an inexperienced driver - you don't even know me.

...



...you know, forget it. I posted up this morning to share my opinion; not to waste my time arguing with a know-it-all.



It's no wonder the AZ section only has 5 people who post in it. You guys sure know how to create a hostile environment.


Have a nice day.

[MostroNero]

You know...when I first read Dave's 5-year adjustment statement, I passed over it thinking it sounded reasonable. The more I've thought about it, the less time I think it would take, but I have no idea. It's really more a matter of  car folk knowing that it's legal for the bike to be doing that. It could take anywhere from a week to....well...five years, I guess.  

My grand prediction for Arizona and lane splitting is that no more than 25% of all riders will even practice it on a regular basis.

As far as the "receptiveness" of Phoenix automotorists to lane splitting, I've only had a few (less than five) cars try to scoot over in stopped traffic to close my path. Oddly enough two of those were meathead jacked up Dodge pickups with huge TapOut stickers and all the rest of that stereotype, and the others memory wants say were Camaro types...either way, I'm sure what I was dealing with was a control freak personality and those exist around the world in equal proportions; they're not over-represented in any one city....except maybe Washington D.C..