Sensible set of rules for group rides?

[stopintime]

I like the list. I am curious about the above bullet point though. What is meant by "using your whole lane"? Is this referring to just on the highway or to twisties as well?

It's mostly to avoid cutting corners in the twisties, from inside (gravel) to outside yellow line (oncoming cars). That's a required practice to go the fastest you can, but on public roads we might hit something that throws us off our line and then we have no safety margins. Check out the online article "The Pace" by Nick Ienatsch - that's where I got it.

On highways this is probably not an issue, as we usually don't go fast enough to need cutting corners there.

[ScottRNelson]

It's mostly to avoid cutting corners in the twisties, from inside (gravel) to outside yellow line (oncoming cars). That's a required practice to go the fastest you can, but on public roads we might hit something that throws us off our line and then we have no safety margins. Check out the online article "The Pace" by Nick Ienatsch - that's where I got it.

On highways this is probably not an issue, as we usually don't go fast enough to need cutting corners there.

I think it's kind of awkwardly worded in your list then.

One of my rules for riding and for anyone who rides with me is "don't go outside of your lane", even on roads with no lines.  But we all still use the whole lane for the most part, specifically, entering the corner from the outside edge and finishing the turn at the inside edge.  That is what David L. Hough calls a delayed apex turn.  And I'm convinced that it's the safest way to ride twisties.

Your wording implies to me that I want to just stay in the left or right tire track the whole time (pick one).

[pennyrobber]

It's mostly to avoid cutting corners in the twisties, from inside (gravel) to outside yellow line (oncoming cars). That's a required practice to go the fastest you can, but on public roads we might hit something that throws us off our line and then we have no safety margins. Check out the online article "The Pace" by Nick Ienatsch - that's where I got it.

On highways this is probably not an issue, as we usually don't go fast enough to need cutting corners there.

Got it.

[stopintime]

I think it's kind of awkwardly worded in your list then.

One of my rules for riding and for anyone who rides with me is "don't go outside of your lane", even on roads with no lines.  But we all still use the whole lane for the most part, specifically, entering the corner from the outside edge and finishing the turn at the inside edge.  That is what David L. Hough calls a delayed apex turn.  And I'm convinced that it's the safest way to ride twisties.

Your wording implies to me that I want to just stay in the left or right tire track the whole time (pick one).

I don't think it's the safest way. It's a method to make sure you get through a turn with improved overview and it will allow you to go faster because you straighten out the turn.
 
I want to practice consciously staying in the middle of my lane, it's much like skiing between gates/poles - it will immediatelly tell you if your speed and skills are off - if you are too fast into a turn, you will find out without being thrown off your line/lane too far.

Both methods can be used in a smart way to learn riding better, but what I see is that there are always riders going too fast relying on good road conditions and enough room for mistakes - which isn't always going to be the case. Leaving some room for errors is a safety measure.

[ScottRNelson]

I don't think it's the safest way. It's a method to make sure you get through a turn with improved overview and it will allow you to go faster because you straighten out the turn.
 
I want to practice consciously staying in the middle of my lane, it's much like skiing between gates/poles - it will immediatelly tell you if your speed and skills are off - if you are too fast into a turn, you will find out without being thrown off your line/lane too far.

Both methods can be used in a smart way to learn riding better, but what I see is that there are always riders going too fast relying on good road conditions and enough room for mistakes - which isn't always going to be the case. Leaving some room for errors is a safety measure.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree then.

I'm just finishing reading More Proficient Motorcycling by David L. Hough, for the third time, and he spends a whole chapter - Chapter 7 - explaining the safest way to get through a corner on the street.

The most important thing is that all of your braking is done before the corner begins, you enter the turn from the outside edge of the lane, and give it light throttle through the turn, gradually giving it more as the turn straightens out.  You hit the apex - the inside of the turn - as you complete the turn.  If it's an S-turn, you're already exactly where you want to be for the next corner.

It took me approximately a year to convert my old habits into delayed apexes all the time, and I've never found myself too hot into a corner since converting over.  On the rare occasion when I didn't quite brake enough for the turn, usually on downhill corners, there is still plenty of time to brake while in the turn to correct the miscalculation without going outside of the lane.

Delayed apex turns as taught by Hough, ARE leaving room for errors as a safety margin, in my opinion.

[stopintime]

I agree on the late apex and inside of the turn, which allows for errors and give a better overview. But, when riders use the advantage of this method to go faster and need to exit on the outside edge of their lane - that's when things can get out of hand.

[ScottRNelson]

...when riders use the advantage of this method to go faster and need to exit on the outside edge of their lane - that's when things can get out of hand.

Sounds like we're in violent agreement then. 

[stopintime]

Sounds like we're in violent agreement then. 

What has a violin to do with all this

[Ray916MN]

I've run 100s of group rides and currently run a twisty road ride which is AMA sanctioned and in its 17th year, TWiSTAR. Last year 100+ did this ride. I regularly run rides where 10-30 people show up. The people who come on these rides typically break up into smaller groups of 3-8 riders.

On group rides I tell everyone to ride their own ride and as a ride organizer I see it as my responsibility to make it possible for everyone to ride their own ride.

To make it possible for everyone to ride their own ride, I provide a route sheet and sometimes a Garmin GPS file for the route. The route includes set gas/break stops and a lunch stop. Riders are told, if you don't know where you're going, then you can't ride your own ride and they are told if they can't follow a route sheet while riding the ride isn't appropriate for them. Route sheets also make it easy for riders to participate solo, or to form their own small groups.

Otherwise the ride rules I use are:

Arrive with a full tank of gas, properly dressed (helmet, gloves, jacket, boots), MC endorsement, properly running motorcycle and a way to follow the route while riding.

On the road, ride in a stagger formation on straights, and single file on turns, maintaining a 2+ second following gap to the rider ahead.

Let faster riders in the turns, pass on straights. It is incumbent on passing riders to pass safely.

While I typically wait for riders at every route change, and/or arrange for someone to ride sweep if the group I'm leading gets large, I don't ever say I'll do this on a group ride, before the ride. In my experience when people ask if the leader will wait for them at route changes or whether there will be a sweep rider, these questions are indicative that they will feel pressed to keep up or potentially fell like they are holding everyone up, or that they want someone else to be responsible for their ride. Over the years, I've had far too many people blame their crashes on me for leading at a pace too fast for them, or for not taking care of them on a ride, in other words, I had far too many people not take responsibility for their riding. I've found it better to emphasize upfront that everyone needs to be prepared and capable of taking responsibility for their own ride, before going on a group ride. Riders show up with the right attitude and there are allot fewer crashes.

FWIW...

[Popeye the Sailor]

While I typically wait for riders at every route change, and/or arrange for someone to ride sweep if the group I'm leading gets large, I don't ever say I'll do this on a group ride, before the ride. In my experience when people ask if the leader will wait for them at route changes or whether there will be a sweep rider, these questions are indicative that they will feel pressed to keep up or potentially fell like they are holding everyone up, or that they want someone else to be responsible for their ride. .

Weird-I've asked the same question.....

.....and I was sweep on the ride.



IMO I need to know what the leader plans on doing, and if I was s rider in the group, it would make me actually take a map.

[Ray916MN]

Weird-I've asked the same question.....

.....and I was sweep on the ride.



IMO I need to know what the leader plans on doing, and if I was s rider in the group, it would make me actually take a map.

Oops should have been clearer.

I don't ever say I'll wait for riders at every route change or that there will be a sweep riders in the ride post or promo. I do let people know who show up for a ride if  I'll wait at every route change or if there will be a sweep rider at the ride start.

OTOH, I really do appreciate when people come prepared with a map. When I first started telling people they had to be capable of following a route sheet and had to have a way to follow the route when riding, a bunch of people still showed up without anyway to follow the route while riding. A bunch of pregnant doging at them, and now guys show up with rolls of masking tape so they can tape route sheets to their tanks if they don't have tank bags.

[Mojo S2R]