Countersteering question

[Nomad]

I'm a new rider, like 200 miles new, and I've read Twist of the wrist I and II and Total Control.  I understand the concept of countersteering, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it or not.  Taking off from a stop and going directly into a turn, turning the handlebars is fine, seems natural and safe/comfortable.
     My question is this, when I'm cornering at speed, I lean onto the handlebar of the direction I want to go, my bike leans, and I go around the corner.  What I don't understand is that for countersteering am I supposed to push on that handlebar hard enough to the point where it actually turns?  The thought of turning the front wheel by muscling it around at speed absolutely terrifies me and seems completely unnatural.
     I hope I explained my question clearly enough, thanks for any responses

[Raux]

get into a large parking lot with no obstacles and push on the INSIDE bar as you lean. you will lean quicker so be careful. that's countersteering. your outside hand should be light on the grip so you aren't pushing with it.

[somegirl]

You just push on it enough to make the bike lean.  On some bikes this is quite easy, on others it may feel like you have to muscle it a bit.

BTW countersteering works on a bicycle too, so if you have one, you can try it out on it, the principles are the same.
Get up to about 15-20 mph somewhere you can ride straight for a ways without traffic.  Now push gently on one side and feel the bike want to lean and turn towards that side.

It's the exact same thing on the motorcycle except you usually have to push a bit harder.

[mstevens]

If you're turning and your bike is moving faster than walking speed, you're countersteering.

[causeofkaos]

countersteering is used to get the bike to initiate the turn once you are in the turn you will actually steer through the turn, shifting body weight/position goes hand in hand with countersteering.
if you are not shifting body weight or doing it correctly "getting crossed up" it will take a long time for it to click and feel natural.
Ducatis really don't like being muscled around, just sitting upright and forcing the bars didn't work for me.
make sure you don't get used to using your dominant arm to push and pull for opposite turns, i got into that in the beginning took a while to break that habit.
just my 2 cents

[Nomad]

Thanks guys, sounds like I'm doing it a little bit, just the thought of actively turning the handlebars at speed is a little daunting.  I'll try it in a parking lot.  I'd sign up for some classes but I live in Germany at the moment so I don't know that much is available.

[Raux]

woah. where are you? I'm in kaiserslautern.

[Nomad]

woah. where are you? I'm in kaiserslautern.

Not really familiar with the geography here, but I'm in Illeshiem, about 2 and a half hours south of Frankfurt.

[Raux]

ok. yeah about 2 hrs from me. I'm straight west towards France.

You can take the MSF course on base and after that there is an intermediate course as well as a sport riders course. Talk to you local base safety or vehicle registration or license office.

also. pm me and I'll give you info how to contact me at work so we can talk while at work. this forum is block at my base.

[mstevens]

I'll say it again: if your bike is turning, you're countersteering.

Go out on a quiet road and push gently on one of your bars. Note that your bike tries to turn toward the side that you pushed. That's countersteering.  A parking lot is not the best place to investigate this, since at very low speeds (walking speed) other factors come into play and countersteering may not be what's going on.

You probably aren't very aware of all you do when turning, but the only way to turn a motorcycle at speed is to countersteer. It's well worth learning to think this way for emergencies (so you push on the correct side in a panic turn), but most of the time thinking about this stuff is just over-thinking.

I'm not sure what you mean by "actively turning the handlebars at speed." You either turn them or you don't. If you don't, the bike doesn't turn. If you're able to lean the bike, I promise you the handlebars are moving, even if only by a tiny bit. It usually only takes a very small amount.

There's nothing magical, mystical, or mysterious about countersteering.

[ScottRNelson]

If you are not shifting body weight or doing it correctly "getting crossed up" it will take a long time for it to click and feel natural.
Ducatis really don't like being muscled around, just sitting upright and forcing the bars didn't work for me.

I disagree with both of these sentences.

You don't need to shift your body weight even the tiniest bit to steer a bike aggressively.  However, if you're not countersteering, moving all over the place will do very little to steer the bike.

And the four Ducatis that I've owned all needed more muscle for the steering inputs than the various Japanese bikes that I've had.

I would recommend reading Total Control by Lee Parks.  It has a full chapter on steering inputs along with exercises to make sure that you're providing proper steering inputs and not doing it wrong.  That book helped me to better understand how various control inputs make the bike do different things.

[Raux]

I would recommend reading Total Control by Lee Parks.  It has a full chapter on steering inputs along with exercises to make sure that you're providing proper steering inputs and not doing it wrong.  That book helped me to better understand how various control inputs make the bike do different things.

great book!

[somegirl]

You don't need to shift your body weight even the tiniest bit to steer a bike aggressively.  However, if you're not countersteering, moving all over the place will do very little to steer the bike.

Actually, with regards to your second statement, if you have stiff arms (as many newbies do), then by moving your body you will accidentally move the bar and countersteer the bike.  This is why some people think they can steer by leaning.

[ScottRNelson]

Actually, with regards to your second statement, if you have stiff arms (as many newbies do), then by moving your body you will accidentally move the bar and countersteer the bike.  This is why some people think they can steer by leaning.

Actually, those people are countersteering, whether they realize it or not.

[somegirl]

Actually, those people are countersteering, whether they realize it or not.

Agreed!