Countersteering question

[Nomad]

Think I got it, thanks folks.  The books made it sound more mysterious than it really is I guess, and I blew it out of proportion trying to over think it.

[Cider]

Think I got it, thanks folks.  The books made it sound more mysterious than it really is I guess, and I blew it out of proportion trying to over think it.

Don't worry, it gets blown out of proportion by people with decades of experience on a regular basis. 

[corey]

i find this video of keith code's "No BS Bike" to illustrate countersteering vs. leaning perfectly.
leaning won't get you jack shit by itself.

Keith Code's No BS Bike

[DucofWestwood]

one thing that really helped me (and i'll let others correct me if what i'm saying is not correct from a technique standpoint) is learning to drop my inside elbow.  in other words, in normal straightaway riding, my elbows would be slightly higher than the height of the bars.  when turning, i found that if i dropped my elbows so that they are at the same height as the bars, it made it easier (more natural) to push forward on the grip (as opposed to leaning down on the grip, which i tended to do when my elbows were higher than the bar). 

of course this may depend on how tall you are, height of your bars, etc.  i'm 6' and didn't have any bar-risers on my first bike.

[causeofkaos]

You don't need to shift your body weight even the tiniest bit to steer a bike aggressively.  However, if you're not countersteering, moving all over the place will do very little to steer the bike.

And the four Ducatis that I've owned all needed more muscle for the steering inputs than the various Japanese bikes that I've had.

shifting the body weight helped it all click together for me, your right u dont have to move at all, especially in city street riding. Shifting body weight made counter steering more effortless for me.

using "more muscle" and muscle-ing the bike around are 2 completely different things
i interpreted the OP as muscle-ing the bike not using more muscle.

everyone will develop a riding style that works best for them mine is far from perfect thats why i wasn't Rossi's replacement 

just raised my .02 cents to a nickel

[Blackout]

Good that you asked the question,though.
A guy I know who was a new rider recently got himself into a corner too hot, realized he was going to crash unless he really cranked on the bars. The idea of countersteering was foreign to him so in a sheer panic he turned the bars in the direction he wanted the bike to go. Let's just say it was an expensive lesson he learned that day.

[Goduc]

It just blows my mind that you have to think about it at all.  If you've only been riding for...hell, even 5,000 miles, if your going so fast that countersteering is coming into play.  SLOW DOWN!!!  At a mild pace you dont even have to countersteer.  Countersteering really comes into play when you are going through fast s turns where you are at an agressive lean angle and you have to change directions very quickly.  When you countersteer it will pick the bike up out of the lean and getting going the other direction.  Moral of the story, ride at your level and when it comes time that you are riding fast enough to countersteer you will do it naturally.  Truth be told, I have never had to think about it, it just starts to happen naturally.  Good luck, have fun, and be careful out there. [moto]

[mstevens]

if your going so fast that countersteering is coming into play.  SLOW DOWN!!!  At a mild pace you dont even have to countersteer.

Complete and utter balderdash!

Countersteering is the normal steering mechanism for motorcycles traveling at normal speeds. That is, any time you're going faster than a brisk walk, you're countersteering whether you like it or not.

My response to this claim is "If you're not countersteering, speed up! You'll never get there otherwise!"

[Slide Panda]

if your going so fast that countersteering is coming into play.  SLOW DOWN!!!

Truth be told, I have never had to think about it, it just starts to happen naturally.

Though it varies a bit from bike to bike - the point at which the gyroscopic forces on the wheels necessitates countersteering is quite low  - like 10 mph. So saying that someone is going 'so fast' really doesn't work at all. Countersteering is a part of normal bike operation at all but the slowest speeds, and not just a high speed S or something similar and works regardless of lean angle.

For most folks it comes naturally, to a degree, or we'd have a lot more bike wrecks. But, naturally or no, understanding the mechanisms at work, and your part in them is is something to be encouraged. Contersteering came naturally to me too, but I still read about it, and still, after years of riding actively think about as an exercise to get better at it.

Moral of the story, ride at your level ...  Good luck, have fun, and be careful out there. [moto]

This, I agree with 

[ScottRNelson]

Though it varies a bit from bike to bike - the point at which the gyroscopic forces on the wheels necessitates countersteering is quite low  - like 10 mph.

This is turning into the countersteering misinformation thread. 

Gyroscopic forces have almost nothing to do with countersteering a motorcycle.  You can put a ski on the front of a bike with no gyroscopic forces and it will still countersteer the same way.

[Nomad]

Yeah... I got what I needed out of it more or less.  Isn't something I need to worry about, just thought I was missing something by how much it is harped on in the books, when it turns out if you're turning the bike you're doing it.  I've ridden pedal bikes forever, maybe it is harped on in twist of the wrist, total control, etc, for people that aren't used to two wheeled vehicles.

[Cider]

I think the books stress it because it can be subtle in everyday riding--subtle enough that some people probably don't realize they're doing it.  If you don't understand what you're doing, it's hard to improve.

[Goduc]

I think the books stress it because it can be subtle in everyday riding--subtle enough that some people probably don't realize they're doing it.

Thank you, this is what I was trying to get across.  Everyone countersteers, you just don't have to think about it until you are really using it to force the bike to something it doesn't want to do...go the other direction.

[Statler]

This is turning into the countersteering misinformation thread. 

Gyroscopic forces have almost nothing to do with countersteering a motorcycle.  You can put a ski on the front of a bike with no gyroscopic forces and it will still countersteer the same way.

this one gets argues all over the internet and nobody ever agrees....but heavy wheels on a bike versus light wheels on a bke make a huge difference in how hard you have to push the bars.   Why could that be other than gyroscopic issues?   (I perfectly understand moving the wheel out and the center of gravity of the bike keeps going straight thus the bike leans and now...blah blah blah...)   The arguments are always which causes the lean/turn versus heavy/light wheels lessoning the effort to do something that causes the turn.  Who cares.  Push right go right.

regardless....we all agree the bars do the steering...so...back to that...

one big thing I see with new riders and countersteering, especially when in a corner too hot on the street...stiff-arming the bars.   When you tense up you try to countersteer and YOU are blocking the movement and the bike goes straight.  combine that with target fixating on the curb/tree/driveway and you run off wide.   Keep those elbows bent and the bars move muuuuch easier.

[evocarti]

I'll say it again: if your bike is turning, you're countersteering.

Go out on a quiet road and push gently on one of your bars. Note that your bike tries to turn toward the side that you pushed. That's countersteering.  A parking lot is not the best place to investigate this, since at very low speeds (walking speed) other factors come into play and countersteering may not be what's going on.

You probably aren't very aware of all you do when turning, but the only way to turn a motorcycle at speed is to countersteer. It's well worth learning to think this way for emergencies (so you push on the correct side in a panic turn), but most of the time thinking about this stuff is just over-thinking.

I'm not sure what you mean by "actively turning the handlebars at speed." You either turn them or you don't. If you don't, the bike doesn't turn. If you're able to lean the bike, I promise you the handlebars are moving, even if only by a tiny bit. It usually only takes a very small amount.

There's nothing magical, mystical, or mysterious about countersteering.

^ This.

A bike cannot lean without countersteering. Keith Code has one of the best illustrations of this principle in the video for Twist of the Wrist 2. He attaches a rod to the handlebars, and points it backwards so you can see very fine steering inputs. On every corner, you can see the countersteering movements. They're not very pronounced, but they are always there.

Another illuminating segment is where he bolts a handlebar to the frame and has a rider try to turn the bike using only body movement. It doesn't turn much, at all.

I believe one of the previous posters linked to a youtube video of one of these, but it's blocked from my workplace

I second the recommendation: Go find a lonely straight road, go about 40mph, and gently push forward on the left/right side of the handlebars. See what happens. Push right, lean right, go right. I did this exercise early in my riding career and found it particularly helpful.