Siemens ECUs - the reflash/modding possibilities

[DucNaked]

OK I got a little more info of how the maps are developed for Rexxer.  This is from Joe at Spareshack.com

With regards to the maps. All the Zard maps are made by Zard in house as they have bought the RexXer professional and tuning software package. They are starting to see some really impressive results (triumph Bonneville with zard silencers, modified airbox and rexXer tune is giving an increase of 13bhp!!!). Quat D also have the full tuning package and create maps in house for all of their relevant exhausts. RexX work closely with Fabrizio Richardi (Ducati Xerox technician and the developer of the RexXer) producing custom maps for customers and dealers alike. The maps for the Termigoni systems are the dp maps taken as a baseline and then modified in house.

[Raux]

yeah i had the PC V shipped out to me last week.

Figured I would need it for sure when I change over to the 1100 cams and the port/polish. AND eventually the airbox change.

[graydo]

 Greetings lads,
Firstly thanks to Ung for all of his shenanigans and the entertainment thus far....been enjoyable following your adventures with your bike amigo. Also thanks for this very relevant post.
I am a fellow M1100 owner, although it is a bit beaten up at the moment having parked it into the back of a land cruiser that pulled out in front of me in Dubai. Will share the resurrection with you all at a later date...another story...
M1100 Siemens ecu.... whilst I don’t claim to be completely up to speed with these particular systems I have had extensive experience in tuning 2 valve air cooled motors (Porsche) for endurance racing. My experience is primarily with Autronic and Motec systems. Most of these systems were not using O2 sensors as they can be fragile in a race environment. my first comment would be that no 2 engines are alike and there is always something to gain with independent tunes, and there is nothing better than a single ECU directly controlling all the functions, especially as most engines (I would be surprised if the 1100 is any different) all benefit from individual cylinder tuning due to different head and barrel temps, sensitivities to detonation, benefits from exhaust scavenging etc. The tune is an all encompassing event, Cams, throttles and ecu all need to be in sync, exhaust temps should be typical. Now before deciding if the O2 sensors are to be removed it would be prudent to understand all of the inputs the ECU is dependent on for mapping to try and understand how dependant it is in them...does it have barometric compensation? Head temp inputs? Air temp inputs, knock sensor inputs etc...Believe it or not as I haven’t had the time to have a good look at the ecu, I don’t know the answers to these things, assuming it does, if the factory ECU can be unlocked successfully and ALL parameters accessed there is a lot of promise in the factory system. Tuning it to perfection can be something else considering there is as much to gain from spark tuning as there is from fuel mapping. In Dubai I managed to hit a car whilst trying to watch the road...god knows how many camels I would collect if trying to watch a lambda whilst on wide open throttle runs! I expect I might be trying to ride beyond my abilities.
Anyway, as I have a new exhaust coming (last one a bit dinged up) and a new dash (last one still embedded in the land cruiser MF!!! and from what I have read here the immobilizer will now be a problem also) I am in the same boat as you guys....need to find the right solution to the computer problem... Now I have an Iranian guy that works for me that seems to be able to crack anything....I am curious whether he could crack the Siemens...has anyone here ever seen the maps or have a clear understanding of the different tiers and options for tune ability? Coms port pin outs etc?

All the best to you all

[ajw85]

has anyone opened up a monster ecu? pics?

[ungeheuer]

I believe that the service Anthony is going to provide is a flash with Rexxer products. So same as the Rexxer unit, but cheaper.

You are correct  .  I've received information which confirms that the Desmoworks reflashing service is using Rexxer equipment/mapping.

Desmoworks are also listed on Rexxer's website as the only "Rexxer Point" in the USA.  

But I'm still wondering why I think its gonna be more fun to spend $175 more to own a Rexxer unit to reflash my ECU than to send it to Anthony to reflash it.  Doesnt make sense.  

...Firstly thanks to Ung for all of his shenanigans and the entertainment thus far....been enjoyable following your adventures with your bike amigo. Also thanks for this very relevant post.

I'm glad somebody other than me has got some entertainment from my "shenanigans" around here.  Good word for it that.  Shenanigans   

The shenanigans continues..... 

[Raux]

i think the key to owning your own is being able to use it again. ie, if you put the stock map back on, it reloads it. NOW, if you can change the map and then put it on, test it, put it back to stock, change it, put it on... etc...

that rexxer would have to answer i bet.

[ungeheuer]

Raux, I've bombarded Christian at Rexxer HQ in Rüsselsheim with emails in recent days.  He has been fabulously patient with me and very forthcoming with valuable info.

Here's how the Rexxer User version works:
It comes loaded with a "tuning" map as per your predetermined requirements.
Before uploading this tuning map to your ECU the original ECU mapping is downloaded and saved to the Rexxer device.
You then upload your tuning map to your ECU - at which point the Rexxer unit becomes "locked" for further ECU tuning. (At the same time that this feature is locked, the additional features such as error code resetting, service interval resetting etc.... then - and only then - become unlocked).
If you later choose to upload the original stock mapping back to your ECU, the Rexxer unit then "unlocks" and can be reloaded with some other different "tuning" map - which Rexxer can email to you for a fee. You cant edit the maps yourself, unless you buy their editing software at great expense.

[Raux]

well that sucks

whole point would be to develop your own custom map.

[ungeheuer]

...whole point would be to develop your own custom map.

You can.  You'll be needing the Rexxer Professional unit and the Rexxer Map Editor software, yours for a combined total of just EUR 5000  .

Thats why I'll be keeping the PCV 

Soooo... my plan at this stage looks like this:  Buy the Rexxer User unit loaded with a basic M1100 DP Full System Racing EVO ECU cloned map, but modified to delete the o2 sensors.  And have my PCV continue to do its good work, but with the dynamic mapping assistance of a dual autotune setup.... There, I said it out loud.  And you think you're the TB  ...

[Raux]

You can.  You'll be needing the Rexxer Professional unit and the Rexxer Map Editor software, yours for a combined total of just EUR 5000  .

Thats why I'll be keeping the PCV 

Soooo... my plan at this stage looks like this:  Buy the Rexxer User unit loaded with a basic M1100 DP Full System Racing EVO ECU cloned map, but modified to delete the o2 sensors.  And have my PCV continue to do its good work, but with the dynamic mapping assistance of a dual autotune setup.... There, I said it out loud.  And you think you're the TB  ...

would it be cheaper if they just took out the o2 and didn't load a map?

[DucNaked]

would it be cheaper if they just took out the o2 and didn't load a map?

If you take out the o2 sensors you have to modify the map. The lower part of the map is controlled by the o2 sensors.

[Link]

You can.  You'll be needing the Rexxer Professional unit and the Rexxer Map Editor software, yours for a combined total of just EUR 5000  .

Thats why I'll be keeping the PCV 

Soooo... my plan at this stage looks like this:  Buy the Rexxer User unit loaded with a basic M1100 DP Full System Racing EVO ECU cloned map, but modified to delete the o2 sensors.  And have my PCV continue to do its good work, but with the dynamic mapping assistance of a dual autotune setup.... There, I said it out loud.  And you think you're the TB  ...

With that said (and all the rest) I'm a bit lost the Rexxer ala desmo works comes with a pre loaded map that can not be tuned (unless you or your tuning guy has the 5K Rexxer components) If that's correct it really doesn't seem much better then the DP ECU except cheaper. Pro Tune is supposed to have a way to change the mapping and an email I received from Moto Wheels says this will cost about 675.00 which seems steep but if it allows full re-mapping with the stock ecu then it's a good deal as re flash or PCV would not be needed but as of today it's no more than vaporware because until I see it on a bike working I say it doesn't exist. I also talked with the guys at Factory Pro yesterday they use Pro Tune and they have had a 695 for 2 weeks the Pro Tune guys can't even get right so it's wait and see for the 696/1100 and Pro Tune. The PCV from what I've heard can not change the A/F ratio below 5.5K RPM's but from what I hear the optimizers that come with it deal with the low RPM range pretty good. I have never seen a really good power curve from the PCV auto tune system as compared to what a good dyno tune will do. Do you think with a DP map ala Rexxer PCV will allow tuning below 5.5K RPM's ? Has Rexxer confirmed there re-flash can be tweaked to work with out the 02 sensors ? And since they have a "locked" ecu I'm thinking the PCV will only be able to change the outer edges of the map parameters hopefully that will be enough to get what your looking for. I'd like to be able to take the bike to a good tuner and have them custom map it with no compromise but at this time that's impossible. So I guess my options are a PCV about $350.00 or a re-flash around $300.00 and again I don't know of any re-flash that has been done, are the re-flashes still just vaporware in the US ? If that's the case then were right back to a DP ECU or a PCV. (All this started for me when I bought Leo Vinces slip ons for my GF 696 last xmas. FAAAAAAAACK.) I hope this nut gets cracked soon & good luck with your choices I'm going to wait & see if your configuration allows enough re-mapping through out the entire RPM range if so I'll probably go that route. The one other thing is if the re-flash ups the RPM limiter on the 696 not sure if thats an issue on the 1100. Thanks for posting up all your info. 

[ungeheuer]

would it be cheaper if they just took out the o2 and didn't load a map?

If you take out the o2 sensors you have to modify the map. The lower part of the map is controlled by the o2 sensors.

Raux, DucNaked is 100% correct.  Deleting the o2 sensors from the mapping IS modifying the mapping - its modifying the mapping to seek no input from the o2 sensors, requiring a re-write in the lower range.

Pro Tune is supposed to have a way to change the mapping and an email I received from Moto Wheels says this will cost about 675.00 which seems steep but if it allows full re-mapping with the stock ecu then it's a good deal as re flash or PCV would not be needed but as of today it's no more than vaporware because until I see it on a bike working I say it doesn't exist.

Pay attention Link . Mate, look back a few posts and you'll see this >>

..... Protune also has a flash unit (it looks identical to the rexxer) but I believe all it does is upload the map. It seems someone has used the protune on a M1100 here http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/198280-review-protune-powermap-siemens-ecu.html

With that said (and all the rest) I'm a bit lost the Rexxer ala desmo works comes with a pre loaded map that can not be tuned (unless you or your tuning guy has the 5K Rexxer components) If that's correct it really doesn't seem much better then the DP ECU except cheaper.

Let me see if I can clarify.  AFAIK the Rexxer and the Pro Tune units works in exactly the same way. The units can be pre-loaded with whatever ECU remapping you wish, so its theoretically possible to have your ECU mapped in such a way as to not need a PCV or any other "piggy-back" device.  This presumes (and this is no different with PCV) that Rexxer/ProTune has a map already created for your bike's engine mods.  Once done though, for the initial entry price, you can not re-edit this new custom mapping (and I believe, but am willing to be corrected, that this too is the deal with the $675 ProTune device. Except that once you've used your ProTune to upload your ECU map it has no further functionality - such as Rexxers error code resetting etc....  So to me ProTune @ $675 seems to offer less than the $475 Rexxer.  Or have I misunderstood something???

The PCV from what I've heard can not change the A/F ratio below 5.5K RPM's but from what I hear the optimizers that come with it deal with the low RPM range pretty good.

This is true.  Thats why you need to reflash your ECU to remove the o2 sensors and the closed loop mapping area so that you can then use your PCV to map over the entire range.

Has Rexxer confirmed there re-flash can be tweaked to work with out the 02 sensors?

Yes.

And since they have a "locked" ecu I'm thinking the PCV will only be able to change the outer edges of the map parameters hopefully that will be enough to get what your looking for.

Locked ECU?  The ECU cant be re-edited.  Its the Rexer unit which become locked post the upload of your chosen "tuning" map.  However, once the closed loop is deleted from your ECU's mapping then you can modify air/fuel over the entire range with your PCV.

Christian at Rexxer was quite keen to write me a custom map to suit my WASP intake with Termi exhaust setup.  But I already know that my WASP developed PCV mapping works quite well with the DP ECU, so I'm going to stick to that formula. I asked Christian to just Rexxer me up with ECU mapping which clones the DP Termi full system map, excepting that the o2s are deleted and the rev limit is raised slightly.  The fine tuning I'll then do with the PCV that I already own, and (if I can get it right) with dual Autotune.

[J5]

I'm pretty well convinced that is about all you're going to get out of a PCV.
I'm not minimizing the importance of driveability *at all*.
IMO, it's 10X more important than peak power.

Way back when, I put a PCIII on my S4, and got it dyno-tuned.
It definitely ran better, driveability was definitely improved.

Curious part was the two power curves, showing a bit more power after the dyno-tune.
There were several spots where the before/after A/F curves crossed, yet the 'after' made more power at those spots...

imho peak HP is all about dick swinging

riding a twin its all about the midrange

important things are where it makes good power and how quick it does

the graph you often dont see is power over time

[Raux]

to me everything rides on the tq curve. the sooner it comes on high and stays there, ie a flat curve, the better.

so all these tunes should be shooting for the highest flattest torque curve.