Enduro/hare scrambles

[bulldogs2k]

So....

I've got bit by the dual sport bug but I want to take it a little further.  I want to race in Enduro's or Hare scrambles and  would like some info about it (I have even started a new workout to accomdate the physical aspects of racing).  It sounds fun, and for the most part, cheap (cheaper than road racing).  Now, will a 250cc 4 stroke keep me competitive, or am I better off with a smoker?  I'm thinking of a KTM 300 2 stroke, which I can get plated for some crazy dual sport fun.  I need a bike that is forgiving while I gain more experience, but at the same time, it needs to keep me competitive.  Lastly, with enduro racing, will a 2 smoke be fuel effecient enough for the race?  Help me   

Angelo

[55Spy]

So....

I've got bit by the dual sport bug but I want to take it a little further.  I want to race in Enduro's or Hare scrambles and  would like some info about it (I have even started a new workout to accomdate the physical aspects of racing).  It sounds fun, and for the most part, cheap (cheaper than road racing).  Now, will a 250cc 4 stroke keep me competitive, or am I better off with a smoker?  I'm thinking of a KTM 300 2 stroke, which I can get plated for some crazy dual sport fun.  I need a bike that is forgiving while I gain more experience, but at the same time, it needs to keep me competitive.  Lastly, with enduro racing, will a 2 smoke be fuel effecient enough for the race?  Help me   

Angelo

depending on your weight and if you are just starting a 250 4 stroke will be fine.  Desert H/S might be a bit more of a wringer for the 250 though.  I raced in district22 in iowa/nebraska for 2 years after a decade haiatus from motorcycles.  It was an absolute blast.  I suggest an electric start bike tho, hotstarting a 4 stroke in a the side of a hill you just tumbled down is no fun, I spent an hour like that once in the middle of a race. 

Competitive is in your head in H/S/enduros at least for the first year or so.  Don't worry about placing just finish the first few.  4 strokes don't have as much to deal with as far as plug fouling, they have the torque to get you up and over most any obstacle, they will have more engine braking so you might not carry as much speed initially through turns as you would on a smoker,

You will be exhausted after 3 hours of single track, my words of wisdom are hydration, tools and keep going!  Carry more speed into the hills than you think you'll need and stay on the gas.

[bulldogs2k]

depending on your weight and if you are just starting a 250 4 stroke will be fine.  Desert H/S might be a bit more of a wringer for the 250 though.  I raced in district22 in iowa/nebraska for 2 years after a decade haiatus from motorcycles.  It was an absolute blast.  I suggest an electric start bike tho, hotstarting a 4 stroke in a the side of a hill you just tumbled down is no fun, I spent an hour like that once in the middle of a race. 

Competitive is in your head in H/S/enduros at least for the first year or so.  Don't worry about placing just finish the first few.  4 strokes don't have as much to deal with as far as plug fouling, they have the torque to get you up and over most any obstacle, they will have more engine braking so you might not carry as much speed initially through turns as you would on a smoker,

You will be exhausted after 3 hours of single track, my words of wisdom are hydration, tools and keep going!  Carry more speed into the hills than you think you'll need and stay on the gas.

I'm at 215-220lbs at the moment but I've started a work out routine that is Cardio heavy, instead of my usual free weights.  So by the time I start racing, I would like to be in the 175-180 lbs range.  I've added alot of core excercise's such as dead lifts and squats, but mainly, I'm trying to increase my V02 max.  What bike would you suggest?  I would like a ktm since it is easier to plate then a 'off road use only' honda or yammie.  Im not concerned of placing, since my goal is to finish a few races before I go all out!  Also, I'm in South East VA, so most of the stuff we have is tight single track woods racing.  Fun!
A

[Punx Clever]

My brother runs h/s and or enduro out in NM from time to time.  Mostly he just rides dirt bikes though.  Anyways, down to details:

He weighs in at about 200 lbs.
Riding is a wide range of open and windy trails with lots of ups and downs.
See here for some pics from the race promoters of the area: http://www.nmdrc.com/dunes07_pits.htm
He was running in the Motorcycle Open Class as a Novice
He rode a YZ450F and, despite having to stop for fuel (Most didn't) he won his class by a minute over the 32 mile course.
On the other hand, a 250cc bike beat him by 3 minutes.

I'd say go for a 400cc class bike.  They are the top of the stack right now as far as performance goes.  A big 600 honda wont turn like you want it to, and is made more for straight runs (think 'busa), and I believe you will grow out of a 250 too quickly (be left wanting more from your bike).

Yamahas WR450F is practially ready for the street... throw some signals, DOT tires, and a HI/Low headlight and you are ready to go.  Already has a digital odo/speedo and push button start.  Also comes stock with a throttle stop on it that will limit your top-end while you are learning, then can be replaced with the YZ450F unit whenever you'd like.

thats my $0.02

[gearhead]

 Most 250 4 strokes are time bobmbs and require you to keep a very close eye on the valves and change oil after every ride. The 450 are way better in that regard but are too powerful for your average guy and will kick the shit out of you in the racing you describe. I'm a KTM 2 stroke guy all the way. I have an 07 200 xcw and love it. I installed a Rekluse auto clutch on it and have raced a few enduros. The 250 2 stroke is perfect.

[bulldogs2k]

Most 250 4 strokes are time bobmbs and require you to keep a very close eye on the valves and change oil after every ride. The 450 are way better in that regard but are too powerful for your average guy and will kick the shit out of you in the racing you describe. I'm a KTM 2 stroke guy all the way. I have an 07 200 xcw and love it. I installed a Rekluse auto clutch on it and have raced a few enduros. The 250 2 stroke is perfect.

How is the fuel consumption on the 2 stroke?  I thought about the 300 2 stroke and thought that would be PERFECT!      

[mxwinky]

Dude, right up my alley.  I've been racing off-road since, oh, about 1972 in everything from motocross to enduros, hare scrambles, desert racing, trials, and on into the AHRMA vintage racing scene.  I've owned darn near every bike out there, two-stroke and four-stroke, and can probably give you whatever help/info you may need. PM me if you'd like to ask any specific questions.  As for general off-road information, whew, here goes:

The new generation four-strokes are fantastic bikes.  Tractable, fast, fun, light, and capable of tackling anything you throw at them.  Do be warned that the real top-notch four-strokes (YZF Yamahas, CRF Hondas, RMZ Suzukis in mx and enduro trim) are awesome bikes, but they're nothing like the good old XR Hondas of yesteryear.  We tend to think of four-strokes as being bulletproof playbikes, but these new bikes are nothing like that.  These new bikes are highly strung racing bikes that actually require maintenance.  You can expect to wear out top ends, and particularly valve trains, with frightening regularity.  You can expect to drop anything from $1,000 to $1,500 to do a top-end rebuild on one of these, regardless of whether it's a 250 or 450.  The Yamahas are reputed to last the longest, but I'm not convinced of that.  In my experience the KTMs are the best of the breed and seem to hold up with the least amount of fuss.  If you want a truly anvil-like reliable four stroke, consider an older Honda XR, in either the 250 or 400cc displacements.  The 650 is a bit too unwieldy for really tight off-roading, but makes a fun street bike.

If you look at the most extreme off-road races like Red Bull's Last Man Standing or the Erzburg Rally, you'll see that the top riders drop their four-strokes in favor of the KTM 300, in most cases.  The 300 offers the light weight of a two-stroke 250 with a far more tractable and smooth powerband.  And of course, as a two-stroke, it's incredibly easy to maintain and cheap to rebuild if you do manage to wear it out.  I currently have a KTM 300 and it's simply an outstanding motorcycle.  The new ones are even electric start, just like their four-stroke brethren.

In short, if you want a playbike that you can convert into a fun dual sporter then you might want to consider a Honda XR.  If you want a more serious dirt weapon then consider either a 300 (or 250) two-stroke or one of the new-generation four-strokes such as the YZF-WR, CRF, or KTM EXC.  The new KTM enduros (WXC-E) are actually fully street legal right off the showroom floor.  You definitely get what you pay for when you plunk down the cash on a KTM.  And if you value light weight, simplicity, ease of maintenance and cost of ownership then definitely stick with a two-stroke.

[bulldogs2k]

Dude, right up my alley.  I've been racing off-road since, oh, about 1972 in everything from motocross to enduros, hare scrambles, desert racing, trials, and on into the AHRMA vintage racing scene.  I've owned darn near every bike out there, two-stroke and four-stroke, and can probably give you whatever help/info you may need. PM me if you'd like to ask any specific questions.  As for general off-road information, whew, here goes:

The new generation four-strokes are fantastic bikes.  Tractable, fast, fun, light, and capable of tackling anything you throw at them.  Do be warned that the real top-notch four-strokes (YZF Yamahas, CRF Hondas, RMZ Suzukis in mx and enduro trim) are awesome bikes, but they're nothing like the good old XR Hondas of yesteryear.  We tend to think of four-strokes as being bulletproof playbikes, but these new bikes are nothing like that.  These new bikes are highly strung racing bikes that actually require maintenance.  You can expect to wear out top ends, and particularly valve trains, with frightening regularity.  You can expect to drop anything from $1,000 to $1,500 to do a top-end rebuild on one of these, regardless of whether it's a 250 or 450.  The Yamahas are reputed to last the longest, but I'm not convinced of that.  In my experience the KTMs are the best of the breed and seem to hold up with the least amount of fuss.  If you want a truly anvil-like reliable four stroke, consider an older Honda XR, in either the 250 or 400cc displacements.  The 650 is a bit too unwieldy for really tight off-roading, but makes a fun street bike.

If you look at the most extreme off-road races like Red Bull's Last Man Standing or the Erzburg Rally, you'll see that the top riders drop their four-strokes in favor of the KTM 300, in most cases.  The 300 offers the light weight of a two-stroke 250 with a far more tractable and smooth powerband.  And of course, as a two-stroke, it's incredibly easy to maintain and cheap to rebuild if you do manage to wear it out.  I currently have a KTM 300 and it's simply an outstanding motorcycle.  The new ones are even electric start, just like their four-stroke brethren.

In short, if you want a playbike that you can convert into a fun dual sporter then you might want to consider a Honda XR.  If you want a more serious dirt weapon then consider either a 300 (or 250) two-stroke or one of the new-generation four-strokes such as the YZF-WR, CRF, or KTM EXC.  The new KTM enduros (WXC-E) are actually fully street legal right off the showroom floor.  You definitely get what you pay for when you plunk down the cash on a KTM.  And if you value light weight, simplicity, ease of maintenance and cost of ownership then definitely stick with a two-stroke.

Hmm....So I was right on the money with a KTM 300 smoker!  A buddy of mine just sold his 300 for 4k so it's not out of my budget, oh and it was street legal!  Here is my next question, I'm rather short, and, I will have to take my bike to a suspension shop to get the suspension shortened (I'm 5'4 with a 28 in. inseam and 190 lbs race ready).  Will this hurt me in the race, I figured as long as i'm not hitting  jumps I should be fine. 

[55Spy]

The 300 2 stroke is a great bike, I love KTM's for modern 2 stroke and the new one can be had electric start.  I've had GasGas 300 2 strokes and the hit is nowhere near as severe as on 250 2 stroke.  You will have to do a little more clutch action to keep it in the powerband than you do on a 4 stroke but not too bad.  At 190 you would be at the top of the non modified 250 4 stroke weight to power ratio but it would be manangeable and no matter what at that weight you will have to have the suspension redone (on any bike actually the 250 4 strokes are fectory setup for about a 150 lb rider and the 450's around a 175 lb rider)

If you can get a bike from someone you know out on some trails it would be best to ride one to decide what you like/don't like about 2 stroke or 4 stroke.

I raced a CRF450X and on tight singletrack it was heavy enough to wear on me after 3 hours but I loved the torque it's fire and forget, you just point it up the hill an keep on the gas and they tractor on. 

Top ends on the 4 strokes , yeah they wear out but my experience has been that after the initial wear in at about 20 hours I saw little movement until well beyond 100 hours and then replace the valves with SS instead of Ti and they last quite a while longer.  You do have to check them but its only about an hour to check the valves and even if a reshim was required it wasn't that much more time.  Personally in Nebraska with the cold early season to hot later half of the season I really liked the fact that I did not have to put alot of though into rejetting for the conditions from one week to teh next, just a slight tweak of the air screw and you were set. Unlike my previous seasons 2 stroke dealings with really cold mornings and warmer afternoons and worrying about fouling plugs. 

The weight is the biggest reason for running a 2 stroke and it does factor into single track riding quite a bit, depends on if you have oil burning in your blood.

[bulldogs2k]

So... once I pay my dues, how do they classify me as a newbie?  And how competitive are they actually? 
A