ECU flash or Power Commander

[Radar]

My bike is running lean.

I've read that there are hot-rod ECUs...  Nemesis?  ...and I've read that Huston Ducati is skilled at the art of the Flash.

I understand that a Flashed ECU would be quicker to assign fuel and ignition values than an external box like the Power Commander would be, but... aren't we splitting hairs? Would a few thousandths of a second's difference be "felt?"

And, if I have an ECU flashed, doesn't that hold me back if I choose to add bigger cams or make other performance changes?

Might I have to Flash again?

All I want is to fatten up the mixture so my bike runs better as it is now, but I'd like to be free to make changes as my bike needs them.

My bike is open loop-

Thoughts?

Thanks-

[Howie]

If your bike is open loop a power commander with a custom map is your best bet. 

[Radar]

Howie,

How do you feel about advertising that describes "ad-ons" like the PC as being too slow to keep up with throttle position and load demands?

Thanks for your input-

[silversled]

It comes down to economics and timing of cash flow. 

Both will accomplish your need for fixing your immediate lean issue. The reflash will cost you $250 plus the VTST and the full ECU solution will cost you $1000 plus dyno time.

If you reflash and later need to do some detailed tuning you will spend the incremental cost to add a PC or switch over to the nemesis. The point being that you spend the money when you need it not all up front.

I chose the reflash route and spent the balance on an Ohlins shock resulting in better overall performance and value.  The reflash was to make it run right, the ohlins was to make it faster       

[battlecry]

Silversled, do you know if the reflash to DP changed the ignition map as well as the fueling?  That is something that is not corrected by the PCIII+.

[Heath]

 I understand PC, it adds or takes away fuel mapping.  I have seen the changes on my own S2R800 with the custom advance map.  The guy that did mine even mapped in extra fuel past 50% throttle so I get a boost because past 50% means I am really getting on it.

So what exactly is flashing the ECU doing? Not sure if I have ever seen a really good explanation of this.

[battlecry]

Heath, the PCIII adds or removes fuel from the fuel map built into the ECU.  Reflashing the ECU changes the built in fuel rpm/throttle/(and maybe air temp/pressure, not sure) map.  WIth the right map in the ECU, you may not need to change it with the PCIII.

[Howie]

Howie,

How do you feel about advertising that describes "ad-ons" like the PC as being too slow to keep up with throttle position and load demands?

Thanks for your input-

If the advertising is true I doubt you would know the difference.  Oh, if you want to get rid of the immobilizer you will have to go the flash route.

[silversled]

Silversled, do you know if the reflash to DP changed the ignition map as well as the fueling?  That is something that is not corrected by the PCIII+.

My understanding is that the DP ECU flash is the same program provided with ECU in the Termi kit.  I am not aware that there are any substantial changes to fuel mapping other than an elevated redline and the ability to adjust fuel trim.  When I flashed mine I also had the immobilizer and O2 sensor deleted.

[Radar]

To the moderator: Thanks; I guess I should have posted this thread here in the beginning.

The ignition question is excellent.

As far as I know, Power commanders alter fuel only, but there's much to gain with a good ignition curve.

If the DP Flashed ECUs incorporate improved spark and fuel maps, it may be a better choice.

Hey, why is the Imobilizer such an issue? Are you folks getting rid of a problem before it occurs?

I have to admit, I'd like to save myself future headaches, but the electronics are already too far above my head... 

Remember the days when you could dial in a carburetor or open up the ignition for repair?

[Link]

Not sure what bike your talking about, but an external box that allows for full re-mapping is the only way to go, just don't skimp on the dyno tune for custom mapping. A lot of PC down loadable maps are not very good so find a reputable tuner and go for it. But it only makes sense to have a plan on what type of mods you want & get em done along with the tuning it's always nice to have before and after dyno runs.  

[Howie]

Some people get rid of the immobilizer because it has problems, some because they lost keys and some just want to run an aftermarket instrument cluster.  I think you will have a hard time determining what the exact map changes occur when you do a DP flash.

[battlecry]

You are correct Link.  I'm happy with what the PCIII has done to my bike, but it does not alter the ignition mapping.  I've modified the airbox, exhaust, dialed the cams and valve shims, dicked around with the plugs and ignition wires, tps, synched the throttles, etc...  There is still some cheeseburger performance in the 3-4k RPM range and I'm beginning to think the ignition mapping may be the culprit.  If the DP reflash comes with an improved ignition advance curve, I think it is a deal for those of us with performance slipons and modded airboxes.

Wonder if Brad Black or Speeddog know for sure?

[atomic410]

my race bike was reflashed, seemed like the best way to go but with a power comander i could wire in a quick shifter.  i had a dead spot round 8500-8700 rpm.  the reflash solved it and lowered my lap times.  silverback performance/ducati minneapolis in minneapolis did mine.  they have an imformative web site

[Buckethead]

Which option you choose really depends on what you're going for. You say your bike is running lean. Well, yeah, they're programmed that way from the factory. They kinda have to be to pass emissions standards. If that's your only concern, then I'd say a reflash is your best bet. It'll "optimize" your fuel mixture over your rev range and it gives you a couple of other options (O2 sensor removal, immobilizer delete) and is basically plug-and-play for $250. Will it change your ignition timing? I don't know. Will your bike run noticeably cooler and have a bit more pickup? Yes. Also, depending on where you get it done, you can get more/less aggressive maps to suit your mods.

If you're looking to go beyond "solving" a lean condition and want to get a reasonable amount more juice out of your bike, as well as have the ability to make adjustments yourself, then a PCIII can be a good investment, but remember: unless you've already reflashed/replaced your ECU, then your bike will still be reading the O2 sensor below 4k RPM. Without somehow compensating for this, your ECU and the PCIII will be basically fighting it out over your fuel mixture down low.

If you want to dedicate weeks/months/years to designing and tweaking your fuel and ignition maps and don't mind spending $1k+, then there's always the Nemesis standalone ECU. Its like a cray computer for your bike. Capable of amazing feats of computational brilliance. I just don't, personally, know anyone qualified to program the thing.