Police use electric motorcycle as "stealth" vehicle

[SacDuc]

Adopting a technology which is not yet up to the desired task is a waste of taxpayer money (I doubt a 50 mile range will be very useful for any meaningful police work, but maybe a real officer can chime in on that though). The State's job, especially a bankrupt one, is not to build a business or develop a market using taxpayer money. This also applies to any state, not just CA (and I like CA).

Also, CA doesn't have technology companies because the State supports them...investors and eventually the market generally do that.

That is just so patently false I don't know hat to say to that. There are a zillion ways states try to entice businesses to open/start-up/expand in their state. In CA its anything from Enterpise Zones to business specific tax breaks to free land to R&D specific tax breaks and on and on and on. One way to attract investors is to broker sweet deals with the state and local governments that push start up and operating costs down. One ay to get a foot hold in a competitive market is to be able to get your product to market earlier even if it is not turning a profit yet. It is all interconnected.

And just how the hell do you guys know that these things will be so useless? This seems to be hat your arguments hinge on. Are there studies or trials that you've read that say so? Or are you just speculating and making things up because you believe your opinions to be facts?

I think it's cool that they are giving it a go and hope it helps the electric moto business take off.

sac

[Grappa]

I don't know the specifics, but I imagine a lot of technology businesses/start-ups are in California because that's where the big venture capitalists are, and because of the culture of being surrounded by other tech businesses.  If it were purely financial, I don't think many businesses would be based in California due to taxes and bureaucracy.

I have a friend who manages a hedge fund in NYC, and I asked him why so many of the hedge funds and traders, etc, live in New York City when what they do is mostly done on a computer, which they could use anywhere.  He said it was because NYC is where the big companies are ALREADY located and it helps to be surrounded by others in your field.  Keep your ear to the ground, so to speak.  Makes sense.

So maybe the electric motorcycle is a way that California is trying to perpetuate the tech thing.  And maybe it will work.  But to me it seems the greenest, most eco-friendly form of transport is on a bicycle.  (approx 45% US power generated from coal fired plants.)  And why they wouldn't just use a $500 bike, I don't know.  Maybe the motorcycles are for a particularly hilly part of California, like San Fran?  When Arnold says they cost less then 1 cent per mile to operate, is he accounting for the federal tax credit and California rebate?  Because that money doesn't just come outta nowhere, obviously.  The fine print might show that they cost more to operate per mile in the long run.

[Triple J]

That is just so patently false I don't know hat to say to that. There are a zillion ways states try to entice businesses to open/start-up/expand in their state. In CA its anything from Enterpise Zones to business specific tax breaks to free land to R&D specific tax breaks and on and on and on. One way to attract investors is to broker sweet deals with the state and local governments that push start up and operating costs down. One ay to get a foot hold in a competitive market is to be able to get your product to market earlier even if it is not turning a profit yet. It is all interconnected.

And just how the hell do you guys know that these things will be so useless? This seems to be hat your arguments hinge on. Are there studies or trials that you've read that say so? Or are you just speculating and making things up because you believe your opinions to be facts?

I think it's cool that they are giving it a go and hope it helps the electric moto business take off.

sac

Geez...you get way too worked up. Your reaction to anyone criticizing your beloved state is so predictable it is comical.  

On the 1st point, now you're discussing different things. I understand that states give things such as tax breaks to companies. What you said earlier was:

the state from adopting a technology (made in that same state) early so as to develop a market and get a new company

See the difference? Tax breaks and things like that v. "adopting new technology". I'd bet the electric motorcycle company is probably already getting tax breaks for creating something green. States should not adopt technology until it is proven effective.

Next, go back and re-read what I wrote on the usefulness of the moto. Here, I'll get it for you:

(I doubt a 50 mile range will be very useful for any meaningful police work, but maybe a real officer can chime in on that though).

Sounds like an opinion to me, with acknowledgment that an actual LEO may dispute it. How do you know it will be effective? You jump on anyone saying it might not be pretty hard.

You're right though, if the moto proves to be useful then it isn't a waste of money. I can't really think of any use for one though (that's an opinion). A 50-mile range would be used up very quickly in a city of any size, and a motorcycle would be difficult to deal with for foot patrol stuff where distances are limited. I've also seen one of these in person in Seattle...they're very small, although they could probably carry as much as the pedal bikes currently do.

I'm surprised the moto company didn't just give them one for use in trials, in hopes of future sales. Maybe $10K is a reduced price for one though...I don't know.

^^^ edit...maybe they did. I got that $10K figure from an earlier post, although I thought it came from the article...bad short term memory!  I'd actually be surprised if the city paid for it now.

[RichD]

...I have a friend who manages a hedge fund in NYC, and I asked him why so many of the hedge funds and traders, etc, live in New York City when what they do is mostly done on a computer, which they could use anywhere.  He said it was because NYC is where the big companies are ALREADY located and it helps to be surrounded by others in your field...

That is not exactly true.

Google "High Frequency Trading" and "latency time"

THAT is the correct answer.  

[Triple J]

I don't know the specifics, but I imagine a lot of technology businesses/start-ups are in California because that's where the big venture capitalists are, and because of the culture of being surrounded by other tech businesses.  If it were purely financial, I don't think many businesses would be based in California due to taxes and bureaucracy.

Also...it's a nice place to live. Easier to get smart, energetic, and talented young employees to move to California than other places that make more financial sense for the company.

[ducpainter]

The overall success, or failure, of electric vehicles all hinges on battery technology. That has been, and still is the limiting factor. It's still too early to tell if the current direction the manufacturers have taken in battery choice will work or not.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fff2a14c-11e6-11df-b6e3-00144feab49a.html#axzz1Ar5gulwd

I think if promoting technology is the states goal they should back someone looking to develop little fusion reactors.

[Grappa]

Also...it's a nice place to live. Easier to get smart, energetic, and talented young employees to move to California than other places that make more financial sense for the company.

Very true.

Edit:  Again, not purely financial.

[triangleforge]

Absent any info in the original article or elsewhere, why are folks assuming that the PD paid retail (or anything) for the bikes?  It's a huge advertising coup for Zero, so in their shoes I'd be practically giving them away to Police Depts in target markets around the country. Arnold's plug for the tax credit is a great soundbite to promote sales for a Santa Cruz, California company -- government agencies don't get anything out of tax credits.

As for the bikes themselves, I'm mostly surprised that they chose the knobby-tired dirt version, rather than the SuperMoto style with slicks, but maybe they're thinking they'd work for off-road in parks, etc.

And sbrguy, if you happen to know any "very fit" bicycle riders who can do 0-30 in two seconds or sustain 40+ for more than a hundred meters, I know of a bunch of pro bike racing teams who'd like to get in touch with 'em! 

[SacDuc]

Geez...you get way too worked up. Your reaction to anyone criticizing your beloved state is so predictable it is comical.  

I'm so glad I can help you be amused by predictable things.

On the 1st point, now you're discussing different things. I understand that states give things such as tax breaks to companies. What you said earlier was:

See the difference? Tax breaks and things like that v. "adopting new technology". I'd bet the electric motorcycle company is probably already getting tax breaks for creating something green. States should not adopt technology until it is proven effective.

I see the difference. I also think I misspoke a bit so I should clarify something. It is not the State that is adopting the technology. I was responding to the first genius that made a dumb crack about CA being broke. what I meant is that it as good for CA that a city in CA as being an earlier adopter of CA technology. I did not make that clear. And I disagree that States (or in this case a city PD) should only adopt proven technology. Sure for firetrucks and medical helicopters and such perhaps, but this is a few motorcycles we are talking about. And the potential worldwide market is huge. I say give 'em a whirl. If the cost is lo and potential large I governments in FL should be earlier adopters of tech made in FL. Same for CO, TX, CA and every other state. Same on the federal level. I would rather have us jump in early on a US start up than wait for China to copy it and make it cheaper.

Next, go back and re-read what I wrote on the usefulness of the moto. Here, I'll get it for you:

Sounds like an opinion to me, with acknowledgment that an actual LEO may dispute it. How do you know it will be effective? You jump on anyone saying it might not be pretty hard.

No, I'm jumping on people who are saying that this is why CA is broke. Or who say silly things like CA doesn't have technology companies because the State supports. But I presume you are all big boys and can handle it.

You're right though, if the moto proves to be useful then it isn't a waste of money. I can't really think of any use for one though (that's an opinion). A 50-mile range would be used up very quickly in a city of any size, and a motorcycle would be difficult to deal with for foot patrol stuff where distances are limited. I've also seen one of these in person in Seattle...they're very small, although they could probably carry as much as the pedal bikes currently do.

well if you can't think of a use for one then no one can. Let's not wait and see. Hold on . . . to wait and see we would actually have to . . . wait for it . . . TRY IT! Like what is being done now! You understand that we can't get to the point of "already proven technology" without, you know, trying stuff out right? And gosh darn it there just aren't that many privately held entire cities with there on police departments to prove this stuff. So to have a local PD try it out is good for the company (and potentially the state with the new jobs and taxes and such) and is of very low risk to the PD.

I'm surprised the moto company didn't just give them one for use in trials, (do we know that they didn't? Surely they got a few test spins before committing) in hopes of future sales. Maybe $10K is a reduced price for one though...I don't know.

[The Bearded Duc]

There is a Zero shop right around the corner from where I live and I have to say, some of these bikes look pretty cool.

Another thing to be considered is the 50 mile range isn't really 50 miles. It's only 25 miles from the closest charging station. That is unless the state is going to take more money from us and install more charging stations 50 miles from each other to support the use of these motos. Also, does the battery life drop when more than the recommended weight is carried? Police officers tend to carry more with them than the average person. Or when they have to travel uphill as in most parts of northern California?

My personal opinion is that electric or "green" technology is the way to go, but that technology is in the fledgling stages at this point and the average working individual still can't afford it. And in a state that has had so many financial woes in the recent past it might not be the right time. The other edge to that sword, however, is that the right time to start helping our, collectively speaking, environment was a very long time ago.


And, regarding the cost of said moto, perhaps the PD that is using the bikes now didn't pay a dime for them. The thing to consider is what if they do end up serving a purpose or the PD likes them. Then the tax payers pay for a lot more than just the bike. That cost then becomes significantly more expensive that the cost of maintaining a regular PD moto or auto but they're adding that to it.

[Triple J]

Sac

If the PD got it for free or a very reduced price, then I agree there's nothing wrong with testing the bike. After re-reading the article I suspect that is the case. I misunderstood that they paid $10K for it. I read the article initially, then read thru the comments, and at some point the $$ value stuck...oops.

I'll quit arguing about the rest of it. You know what I meant, and it wasn't a silly comment.

Use a different color next time...red is a pregnant dog to read in the gray quote screen.

[derby]

Use a different color next time...red is a pregnant dog to read in the gray quote screen.

yellow works

[Bladecutter]

I'm not sure if Police Departments are the best customer base for an electric motorcycle.
You can't really put lights and siren on it for use of getting through a crowd, or for any event that an officer needs someone to yield the right of way for them.

Now, a great customer base for an electric motorcycle would be parking enforcement agents.
They typically have to stay in a small target area, and constantly patrol the meters in that area.

Have a small storage shed for the bikes to recharge at, and they just roll in, grab a bike, tool around writing tickets, switch bikes if the charge on the first one gets low, and then head home at the end of the day.

Maybe a police force can use it for a traffic accident investigation unit.
Chances are that a police force that needs to enter an area silently also needs to carry lots of weapons, and protective gear at the same time. A whole bunch of people wearing black, carrying guns, and heading in the same direction on silent bikes is going to draw a lot of attention. I'm thinking sneaking up on a drug house, of course, in a slum.

BC.

[Drjones]

Didn't see it was the O.R. version, so instead of being a scrap heap in three months I'll give 'em six.

As per the MC.com test a reality out and back range is within a 15 miles.  http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2010-zero-ds-review-90186.html   For a patrol area you're probably looking at around a 5 mile radius max.  Assuming a patrol speed of 10 miles per hour it'd be down for the day after 4 hours of use.  Ten mph is well within even my puggy ass on a bicycle for that time frame.

Related reading. http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/dualsport-shootout-electric-vs-gasoline-90243.html

Same source says they were bought with donation money.  http://www.motorcycle.com/news/scotts-valley-pd-to-use-zero-ds-90298.html  At least it wasn't tax payer money though one would think they could've use it for something more useful.

Here's a free evaluation: You gain short burst pursuit speed, but lose patrol duration time and spend $8k - $9k more than the current patrol vehicle.  Go buy a bicycle.

[rideserotta]

Geez...you get way too worked up. Your reaction to anyone criticizing your beloved state is so predictable it is comical.  

I'm so glad I can help you be amused by predictable things.

On the 1st point, now you're discussing different things. I understand that states give things such as tax breaks to companies. What you said earlier was:

See the difference? Tax breaks and things like that v. "adopting new technology". I'd bet the electric motorcycle company is probably already getting tax breaks for creating something green. States should not adopt technology until it is proven effective.

I see the difference. I also think I misspoke a bit so I should clarify something. It is not the State that is adopting the technology. I was responding to the first genius that made a dumb crack about CA being broke. what I meant is that it as good for CA that a city in CA as being an earlier adopter of CA technology. I did not make that clear. And I disagree that States (or in this case a city PD) should only adopt proven technology. Sure for firetrucks and medical helicopters and such perhaps, but this is a few motorcycles we are talking about. And the potential worldwide market is huge. I say give 'em a whirl. If the cost is lo and potential large I governments in FL should be earlier adopters of tech made in FL. Same for CO, TX, CA and every other state. Same on the federal level. I would rather have us jump in early on a US start up than wait for China to copy it and make it cheaper.

Next, go back and re-read what I wrote on the usefulness of the moto. Here, I'll get it for you:

Sounds like an opinion to me, with acknowledgment that an actual LEO may dispute it. How do you know it will be effective? You jump on anyone saying it might not be pretty hard.

No, I'm jumping on people who are saying that this is why CA is broke. Or who say silly things like CA doesn't have technology companies because the State supports. But I presume you are all big boys and can handle it.

You're right though, if the moto proves to be useful then it isn't a waste of money. I can't really think of any use for one though (that's an opinion). A 50-mile range would be used up very quickly in a city of any size, and a motorcycle would be difficult to deal with for foot patrol stuff where distances are limited. I've also seen one of these in person in Seattle...they're very small, although they could probably carry as much as the pedal bikes currently do.

well if you can't think of a use for one then no one can. Let's not wait and see. Hold on . . . to wait and see we would actually have to . . . wait for it . . . TRY IT! Like what is being done now! You understand that we can't get to the point of "already proven technology" without, you know, trying stuff out right? And gosh darn it there just aren't that many privately held entire cities with there on police departments to prove this stuff. So to have a local PD try it out is good for the company (and potentially the state with the new jobs and taxes and such) and is of very low risk to the PD.

I'm surprised the moto company didn't just give them one for use in trials, (do we know that they didn't? Surely they got a few test spins before committing) in hopes of future sales. Maybe $10K is a reduced price for one though...I don't know.

(I've always wanted to do that... Put the popcorn guy as a reply to a ping pong thread!)