anyone use phazer 3000 ethanol treatment

[DoubleEagle]

The best way to minimize the issue, short of avoiding gasohol in the first place, is to keep your tank as full as possible to help keep water vapor from entering the tank as temperature changes cause the air to expand and contract; and to run through the fuel often enough to avoid phase separation and expel any water which does work its way in.  Honestly, though, you'd have to try really, really hard to get phase separation in a motorcycle fuel tank.  It's more a problem on boats where there's a lot more exposure to water.  Plus boats tend to have fuel tanks which don't respond well to the ethanol itself and break down entirely.

The water gets into the tank as vapor through the vent lines (or around the cap seal, if it's bad).  This is true even without ethanol in your fuel.  Without ethanol, however, the water simply settles to the bottom until it gets temporarily mixed back into the fuel from the movement of the bike while riding.  It gets sucked up by the fuel pump and harmlessly passed as part of your exhaust.  As such only the bottom of your tank would be exposed to water often.

With ethanol, however, conditions change a bit.  While ethanol isn't specifically hydrophilic, it is miscible with water, meaning that they mix well.  So the ethanol and water mix, and the ethanol keeps it suspended in the fuel until, as above, it gets sucked up and exhausted from the system.  In this case much more of the tank's interior surface comes into contact with the water.  Since the nylon used in the tank can absorb up to ~9% of its mass in water, this is a bad thing.

The other problem here is that in ethanol blends, the ethanol itself is depended upon to provide some of the octane rating.  So when you get so much water that the water/ethanol solution falls to the bottom of the tank (phase separates) the octane of the remaining gas drops.  But, again, you'd have to try really hard to get phase separation in a motorcycle.

Since riding often constantly cycles the fuel, and thus the water and ethanol, this should be more of an issue for bikes which sit for longer periods of time, especially in humid environments.

Wondering aloud here:  if one were to attach, say, a partiall-inflated bag securely to the vent line, it should minimize the amount of water vapor which works its way into the tank, while giving the air which is already in there room to expand and contract.  This might be a smart move for those who store their bikes for weeks or months at a time.

Ok, ...then what do you think would be the effects on a bike that has set ( counting this Winter ) 3 Winters for 4 months each Winter without Gasoline Stabilizer w, Ethanol 10% Gasoline , full tank ?

Dolph     

[fastwin]

I obviously am much more concerned about my sitting bikes that are not ridden as often as others. Again, nice explanation Scissors! I do try to keep my tanks filled to the brim with Sta-Bil treated fresh gas. With my plastic tank Ducs I have drained the fuel and have left them dry with the gas caps off the last couple of months. I have read that left in that state they will stop swelling and might return to their original form. We'll see. It's an experiment in the making. Nothing worse than shitty gas and it seems that's what we have to look forward to.

[ducatiz]

The best way to minimize the issue, short of avoiding gasohol in the first place, is to keep your tank as full as possible to help keep water vapor from entering the tank as temperature changes cause the air to expand and contract; and to run through the fuel often enough to avoid phase separation and expel any water which does work its way in.  Honestly, though, you'd have to try really, really hard to get phase separation in a motorcycle fuel tank. 

It's easier than you think.  Fill and refill your tank without draining it empty and you end up with a small amount that remains at the bottom.

  As such only the bottom of your tank would be exposed to water often.

And this is precisely where the problems with the plastic tanks usually start.

With ethanol, however, conditions change a bit.  While ethanol isn't specifically hydrophilic, it is miscible with water, meaning that they mix well.

Ethanol, like all alcohols, is very hydrophilic.  It happily wicks moisture from the air.

So the ethanol and water mix, and the ethanol keeps it suspended in the fuel until, as above, it gets sucked up and exhausted from the system.  In this case much more of the tank's interior surface comes into contact with the water.  Since the nylon used in the tank can absorb up to ~9% of its mass in water, this is a bad thing.

Yes and no.  The real problem is that gravity begins to act on the mixed ethanol/water immediately.  The fuel mixture begins to separate as soon as there is any small amount of water present.  It happens at a rate that is directly correlative to the amount of ambient moisture.

The other problem here is that in ethanol blends, the ethanol itself is depended upon to provide some of the octane rating.  So when you get so much water that the water/ethanol solution falls to the bottom of the tank (phase separates) the octane of the remaining gas drops.  But, again, you'd have to try really hard to get phase separation in a motorcycle.

Part of the problem with the Ducati gas tank design is there is a small amount that is inaccessible to the pump.  As water-heavy ethanol drops, it collects there, then remixes with the next fresh fill of fuel -- each successive tank getting more and more saturated.  Unless you run thru several tanks quickly, you end up with a higher concentration of water present.

Since riding often constantly cycles the fuel, and thus the water and ethanol, this should be more of an issue for bikes which sit for longer periods of time, especially in humid environments.

Yes, in general, however, you don't know how long the fuel has sat in the tank when you take it from the pump.

Wondering aloud here:  if one were to attach, say, a partiall-inflated bag securely to the vent line, it should minimize the amount of water vapor which works its way into the tank, while giving the air which is already in there room to expand and contract.  This might be a smart move for those who store their bikes for weeks or months at a time.

the tank will permit moisture even thru the filler which is not 100% airtight.

[xplodee]

So is a good general policy to drain your tank every winter and leave it at that? It seems like nothing will ever solve this problem outright other than the manufacturers wising up and finally STOP using nylon for gas tanks or ethanol not being used in fuel any longer (yeah right).

[ducatiz]

So is a good general policy to drain your tank every winter and leave it at that? It seems like nothing will ever solve this problem outright other than the manufacturers wising up and finally STOP using nylon for gas tanks or ethanol not being used in fuel any longer (yeah right).

Until there is a fix, which I don't know what it will look like (but something likely will come) draining your tank is the safest route if you don't plan to coat it.

If you have an un-deformed tank and can set it up to dry for a while, coating it is the best option to prevent that tank from deforming and eventually leaking.

[xplodee]

Until there is a fix, which I don't know what it will look like (but something likely will come) draining your tank is the safest route if you don't plan to coat it.

If you have an un-deformed tank and can set it up to dry for a while, coating it is the best option to prevent that tank from deforming and eventually leaking.

I had a sport classic so I've been through this before, but recently sold it. Please forgive me for my ignorance, but:

What's the best way to drain the tank on an m1100 and

Do 1100s suffer from this same issue or has ducati finally done something?

[Speeddog]

Snipped this from the Wiki:

2-Butoxyethanol usually decomposes in the presence of air within a few days

Chemist-people.....what does it decompose into?

[ducatiz]

Snipped this from the Wiki:

2-Butoxyethanol usually decomposes in the presence of air within a few days

Chemist-people.....what does it decompose into?

Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether -- produces peroxides.

[Speeddog]

That doesn't seem like it would help.

But I'm not a chemist.

[ducatiz]

That doesn't seem like it would help.

But I'm not a chemist.

you mean help prevent phase separation?  it isn't doing that in solution.  i believe it is decreasing the relative SG of the ethanol/gasoline solution which lowers the tendency to separate.  a real chemist can explain that.

[zooom]

I obviously am much more concerned about my sitting bikes that are not ridden as often as others. Again, nice explanation Scissors! I do try to keep my tanks filled to the brim with Sta-Bil treated fresh gas. With my plastic tank Ducs I have drained the fuel and have left them dry with the gas caps off the last couple of months. I have read that left in that state they will stop swelling and might return to their original form. We'll see. It's an experiment in the making. Nothing worse than shitty gas and it seems that's what we have to look forward to.

just store those bikes with some good ole CAM2 or other race fuel that has no corn squeezins in it!

[Bishamon]

Do 1100s suffer from this same issue or has ducati finally done something?

Current-gen Monsters are also affected:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/104841-m696-tank-expansion.html

[Scissors]

Ok, ...then what do you think would be the effects on a bike that has set ( counting this Winter ) 3 Winters for 4 months each Winter without Gasoline Stabilizer w, Ethanol 10% Gasoline , full tank ?

Dolph    

Gas goes bad in two ways.  The first is that the components of gasoline which more readily evaporate do so, leaving behind a mix that isn't the same as how you bought it.  In an air-tight container this isn't as much of a problem as it is in a tank with vent lines.  However, no amount of stabilizer will prevent this.

What fuel stabilizer does do is address the second problem, which is oxidation.  The chemical makeup of the fuel changes as parts of it oxidize, which is what fuel stabilizer is designed to counteract.  Fuel stabilizer does not, however, do anything to stop the effects of either ethanol or water.

What would be the effect in the case you listed?  Depends.  Winter tend to be a dry time of year, so less water vapor works its way into the tank.  Personally I've stored gasoline with ethanol for five years straight and run it without any problems, but that was in an air-tight container.  As long as you're getting rid of the fuel and replacing it with fresh stuff once the weather gets warmer, you're likely good to go.

[Scissors]

So is a good general policy to drain your tank every winter and leave it at that? It seems like nothing will ever solve this problem outright other than the manufacturers wising up and finally STOP using nylon for gas tanks or ethanol not being used in fuel any longer (yeah right).

Drain or fill to full.  The former will give water no place to hide if it winds up in your tank, and the latter minimizes the expansion and contraction of air in the tank, which can bring additional moisture in.  Drained is best, but full is easier.  The worst thing you can do is leave it sitting partially filled.

[Scissors]

It's easier than you think.  Fill and refill your tank without draining it empty and you end up with a small amount that remains at the bottom.

Not precisely.  The act of filling your tank, as well as the act of riding over bumps, keeps things mixed up as your fuel pump draws from the tank.  Water doesn't act like a lead weight where it immediately settles to the bottom.  Water gets into all fuel tanks, whether you have ethanol or not.  It just tends to stick around better when you have ethanol.

And this is precisely where the problems with the plastic tanks usually start.

Can, yes.  It did on mine.

Ethanol, like all alcohols, is very hydrophilic.  It happily wicks moisture from the air.

That's not the definition of "hydrophilic."  A hydrophilic substance is any substance which is attracted to water; usually polar molecules, such as sugar.

It is miscible with water and, just like diesel fuel, hygroscopic.  Either way, it's a semantic argument.  The reality is that water mixes well with ethanol, though a true desiccant would prevent this.

Yes and no.  The real problem is that gravity begins to act on the mixed ethanol/water immediately.  The fuel mixture begins to separate as soon as there is any small amount of water present.  It happens at a rate that is directly correlative to the amount of ambient moisture.

This is incorrect.  Water does not dissolve readily in gasoline, and is more dense, so it settles to the bottom.  With ethanol present, however, the water forms a solution with the ethanol and remains in suspension until the volume of water is too great for the amount of ethanol present.  Once this happens then it phase separates and the ethanol/water mixture settles to the bottom.

Part of the problem with the Ducati gas tank design is there is a small amount that is inaccessible to the pump.  As water-heavy ethanol drops, it collects there, then remixes with the next fresh fill of fuel -- each successive tank getting more and more saturated.  Unless you run thru several tanks quickly, you end up with a higher concentration of water present.

Not really, and the math doesn't support your claim.  The only way for the amount of water to increase is for the system to pull less water out than works its way in.  Sorry, but mixed-up fuel/water in a tank that's jiggling up and down is going to evacuate that water far more quickly in the 2-3 hours you're on the road than will work its way back in via water vapor.  Not to mention the evaporative effect of heating that water.

Yes, in general, however, you don't know how long the fuel has sat in the tank when you take it from the pump.

That's why you go to gas stations which get a lot of traffic--so you know it gets regularly refreshed.  Additionally, underground fuel storage tanks have smaller vent lines in relation to their volume than your bike does..

the tank will permit moisture even thru the filler which is not 100% airtight.

"Airtight" is a relative term which can depend on the difference in pressure on both sides of the seal.  The very fact that people experience the sucking noise when they have a plugged/blocked/bent vent tube and they open their fuel tank proves its airtightness.  If it wasn't air tight, then air would have gotten past and equalized the pressure on both sides.  A properly functioning fuel cap seal is airtight at the air pressure differentials commonly experienced.