some internal engine part questions / engine rebuilding general

[junior varsity]

...Same as you I'm nopro engine builder, but fortunately, I know some knowledgable people that have steered me.
I have the early 900 engine with V heads. 984 kit, 210 cams, ported heads, long manifolds and 41mm flat side carbs.
....From what you say, I reckon your on the right path but pro builders are better to answer assembly questions, but I did lots of assembly and disassembly to get the squish-valve piston measurements right.

Awesome. I really appreciate the info. The more I can get before hand, the better I figure.

If I recall correctly, the 984 kit is 96mm pistons, and I think I remember reading that it requires the crankcases to be machined a bit more to fit in the bigger diameter cylinders... but again, hazy recollection. I bet you have gobs of power.

....I found that I didn't have to machine the pockets on my pistons. The pistons came with the DP big bore kit so I dont know who made them. But from what I'm told, a lot of the hi-comp pistons are machined to allow for higher lift valves. ....You will have to machine the standard pistons tho, if you use em.

I hope to avoid reusing the OEM pistons that I have, but I do have my eye on a set of almost no-miles OEM take-offs from a bike that got a big bore kit early in its life, so I might grab those in case I do end up doing OEM pistons. Just not sure about machining after-the-fact on used pistons.

ON PISTONS:
Sure would be nice if I could just order up some off-the-shelf aftermarket pistons that would bolt right in with no additional modifications necessary.

One of the guys I've talked to who has done duc engine building recommended against Wiseco and JE pistons... heavily.  Didn't say anything about Mahles and he sells Pistals so he might have bias, but perhaps from experience.  If the Pistal pistons would work straight away - require no machining, it seems like it would be preferable, despite their higher cost for the off-the-shelf parts .   My only issue is, I can't see a nice diagram that shows how deep those pockets are in comparison to the OEM stuff, and the only Pistal pistons for the 900 motor that I have seen state-side are big bore (94mm or 95mm), rather than 92mm drop-ins, so its not easy to get a measurement of the depth of the cut outs in the 92mm "drop-in" Pistals. (I'm trying to avoid going big-bore on it because I don't want the additional requirement and cost of boring/plating right now if its avoidable).

ON MEASURING THE CUT OUTS - OEM & AFTERMARKET - TO SEE DIFFERENCE IN DEPTHS
First, to make sure I got things straight:
If the OEM pistons would require the intake pocket to be machined +1.25mm/1.00mm, then an aftermarket piston that had a pocket that was deeper by that amount would work out of the box, yes?

That said, lets see if I'm going about this correctly to begin with:
In measuring that depth, I can use distance from the "flat" surface of the piston's face to the bottom of the relief pocket - that's the easiest way to determine the stock cut-out depth, yes?

Or do I need to measure from the wrist-pin up to the cut-out's bottom in case the "height" to the outside/flat surface of the piston to the wrist pin is different?  (I initially thought they would need to be the same, and that compression is only increased by building up the center 'crown' area... but now I realize that was "assuming" this when I did not know it to be a fact - i certainly have not verified it by any method yet)

....You will have to lap in the new valves, but thats not a difficult job.

From what I understand, that's the straightforward process of getting the seat area clean and is done by spinning a valve with lapping compound in the seat and applying only light pressure - not pushing on it, and you have to make sure to clean the hell out of it afterwards to make sure you don't leave any of that compound behind. If I understand this correctly - one of many things I'll be doing for my first time.     I believe I read that some people suggest using an old valve for the lapping when putting in new valves so that you don't remove any special coatings on the new valves, if present. elsewhere I've read that they "self-lap" during the first good heat cycle so some people have quit doing this.

....I found I couldn't put in bigger valves with the 210's because of valve overlap clearances.

Good to know. You still are using both the OEM sized 43mm intake and 38mm exhaust then?

the red bolt allows the oil to go to the other side of the engine to feed the underpiston cooling jet. as it is, the rear piston only see's the oil jet for 180deg because the crank wheel blocks it. Getiing oil to the other side allow's it to see 360deg (see my rebuild thread for more detailed explantion)

I got some reading to do then.

Like you I also have the veetwo primary gears (fitted only about a month ago), cam pulleys ect....   a lot of similarities...   

What's that feel like afterwards? Noticeable or not much?

[Oldfisti]

Plumber's putty works really well for checking piston to valve clearances.

[monsta]

Awesome. I really appreciate the info. The more I can get before hand, the better I figure.

If I recall correctly, the 984 kit is 96mm pistons, and I think I remember reading that it requires the crankcases to be machined a bit more to fit in the bigger diameter cylinders... but again, hazy recollection. I bet you have gobs of power.

I hope to avoid reusing the OEM pistons that I have, but I do have my eye on a set of almost no-miles OEM take-offs from a bike that got a big bore kit early in its life, so I might grab those in case I do end up doing OEM pistons. Just not sure about machining after-the-fact on used pistons.

ON PISTONS:
Sure would be nice if I could just order up some off-the-shelf aftermarket pistons that would bolt right in with no additional modifications necessary.

One of the guys I've talked to who has done duc engine building recommended against Wiseco and JE pistons... heavily.  Didn't say anything about Mahles and he sells Pistals so he might have bias, but perhaps from experience.  If the Pistal pistons would work straight away - require no machining, it seems like it would be preferable, despite their higher cost for the off-the-shelf parts .   My only issue is, I can't see a nice diagram that shows how deep those pockets are in comparison to the OEM stuff, and the only Pistal pistons for the 900 motor that I have seen state-side are big bore (94mm or 95mm), rather than 92mm drop-ins, so its not easy to get a measurement of the depth of the cut outs in the 92mm "drop-in" Pistals. (I'm trying to avoid going big-bore on it because I don't want the additional requirement and cost of boring/plating right now if its avoidable).

ON MEASURING THE CUT OUTS - OEM & AFTERMARKET - TO SEE DIFFERENCE IN DEPTHS
First, to make sure I got things straight:
If the OEM pistons would require the intake pocket to be machined +1.25mm/1.00mm, then an aftermarket piston that had a pocket that was deeper by that amount would work out of the box, yes?

That said, lets see if I'm going about this correctly to begin with:
In measuring that depth, I can use distance from the "flat" surface of the piston's face to the bottom of the relief pocket - that's the easiest way to determine the stock cut-out depth, yes?

Or do I need to measure from the wrist-pin up to the cut-out's bottom in case the "height" to the outside/flat surface of the piston to the wrist pin is different?  (I initially thought they would need to be the same, and that compression is only increased by building up the center 'crown' area... but now I realize that was "assuming" this when I did not know it to be a fact - i certainly have not verified it by any method yet)

yeah, my aftermarket pistons worked out of the box.That was with the 96mm big bore.

yep, you'll have to measure from the pin.
The cost of new hi-comp pistons may be easier to deal with if balanced with the cost of machining the old ones (thats if you can determine that the new ones already have correct pocket depth)

From what I understand, that's the straightforward process of getting the seat area clean and is done by spinning a valve with lapping compound in the seat and applying only light pressure - not pushing on it, and you have to make sure to clean the hell out of it afterwards to make sure you don't leave any of that compound behind. If I understand this correctly - one of many things I'll be doing for my first time.     I believe I read that some people suggest using an old valve for the lapping when putting in new valves so that you don't remove any special coatings on the new valves, if present. elsewhere I've read that they "self-lap" during the first good heat cycle so some people have quit doing this.
Good to know. You still are using both the OEM sized 43mm intake and 38mm exhaust then?

there must be a video out there somewhere showing how its done... but your on the right track.
I used the new valves to lap in, the veetwo ones are nitride coated and the faces ground afterwards, so no coating on the face...
yeah,i'm still using stock valve size's (tho longer, to allow for smaller base circle on the cams)

I got some reading to do then.

What's that feel like afterwards? Noticeable or not much?

Its a hoot to ride, initially not as much as I thought it would be, but then I put the old exhaust on and there it was! the Xbox robbed some power, I'm guessing because it dosn't have the crossover inside, so it dosn't have the scavaging effect. I'm gunna stick with the xbox tho, till I can build my own under engine exhaust. It'll be form over function for a while...

Off topic, but monsta, I swear, I can hear the aussie accent as I read your posts... it's crazy!

hahaha    maaate!

[Blue]

Cool project!

Plumber's putty works really well for checking piston to valve clearances.

I have used lead solder in the past to measure the piston to head clearance on built engines.  Handy that there is no need to dissemble the engine.  Just remove the spark plug and turn the crank to compress the solder.  Of course, you do have to be precise with the placement of the solder.

Caveat: I have never used this method on a Ducati (not that is should be any different!)

[brad black]

ime the je pistons give about 1mm squish clearance as is, the closest point being the outermost edge as the piston crown taper is at a lower angle than the head angle.

machining 3mm off the top of the je (straight cut from the side) drops the comp from 11.5 to 10.8.

i'm sure the je valve reliefs are big enough as is for the 210 and 212 cams.  it's not the max lift that requires them to be deepened on std pistons, but the lift at tdc inlet opening.  210 especially has quite a bit more.

i'd use the longer valves for the ease of shimming if you use the vee two cams.

the 750 cams wil hurt it more than the 900ie cams, but i personally wouldn't run either or the 212 (with the long manifolds).  212 are bigger than the specs suggest - 14 degrees more inlet duration on the last ones i checked.  had an extra 7 degrees either side of the 1mm lift specs from memory.  210 are also i think, haven't fitted any for years to remember.

piston rings come on and off easily, just be careful.  get some ring pliers.

[junior varsity]

I've got the long valves for that very reason. I test fit them in the heads yesterday while cleaning up the heads / inspecting the rockers (have at least one closer that has flaking), and it looks like it will be a *very* straightforward shimming job.


Cool.   Will definitely grab the ring pliers to do this correctly.  I'm hoping to hear back from Pistal about their pistons' dimensions, so I can figure out how close I'd be to 'correct' by ordering their off-the-shelf items, versus ordering up one-off "deep-relief'ed" pistons, and testing this in relation to the standard off-the-shelf JE pistons.

The plans for the 900 IE cams, or more preferably the -212 cams is to have them put in the other Monster 900 (the one I've had from the beginning), with short manifolds and split singles. Going to figure out big-bore, crank lightening, porting, when that job is nearer (going to be at least 1.5-2 years into the future before I get to it).

[junior varsity]

So when I started going through the heads to clean them up, and see how all the hardware looked that I was going to be reusing I found it odd that at least two rockers showed a pretty good amount of wear. Things cleaned up OK for the most part.... but the one closing rocker that was pitted/flaking - that caught me by surprise.

I kind of always thought that was the stuff of Desmoquattro's.  Not sure if anybody else has had this kind of experience before.

I may check out the rockers in the other heads, and frankenstein together the ones that look the best. Replacements are crazy high priced I see.

That said, anybody know places that do replate 2V rockers? Everywhere I look it specifies desmoquattro rockers which are certainly not interchangeable. I haven't contacted anyone just yet, but again - the information gathering stage.

I also saw folks mentioning, from a thread a few years old, where they were investigating DLC coating the rockers. Anybody have any experience or knowledge about this?

[junior varsity]

Still on the whole rockers element, I'm looking at the rockers in the "W" heads to see if I can get away with a switch here or there and have a complete "good" set for now.   5 of 8 rocker spindles came out "normally". 3/8 (all in the same head) are stuck as a mofo.   Will be getting a larger weight slap hammer to tackle this - been communicating with Bob at Desmo Valvola Servizio ("DVS": http://desmo-valvola-servizio.com/), and I've picked up a few of his tools to see how they work, and he's included a newer prototype slap hammer to give a go.   Nice fella.

In taking apart the "W" heads, I found an odd (high) number of shims all over the place - shims along with the spacers on each side of the closer rockers, and several thin shims on each side of the clips at the opening rockers, along with the normal 1-per-side thick shims....

While I am well aware of how "green" I am at heads - having seen intimately only the "innards" of my original M900 (with V heads), and the 02-900ie's (with V heads) - they both were "standard" and just like the parts diagrams - no extra shims.   Is this common to 'extra shim" the area - it seems like there's was MUCH more resistance in turning the clips to remove them, etc.   And I'd think I'd describe that as "bad resistance" for a group of parts that rotate quickly about those shafts.

Anyhow, if a "good" set can be made of what I've got, then I plan to get the remaining ones replated and DLC coated (if this is a real possibility and a good idea) to have as "spares" for either bike in the future.   Along those lines - would it be beneficial to have the cams themselves coated to prevent wear?  Seems like they are the most important part and the risk of a flaking rocker isn't so much "performance deterioration" from the slight change it would create valve shim clearance, but the real risk would be a non-smooth surface running on the cam - creating excessive friction and thus wear on the cam itself.

let me know what you folks think about that, I'm just spit balling over here.


Haven't had much time to really "work", but for entertainment's sake, I mocked up the heads on the cylinder studs last night, using M10 aluminum spacers to take up the room where the cylinder should be. (kind of the opposite of using the spacers above the cylinder when removing the head to keep the cylinder against the crankcase). And I've used rubber bands to keep the rods centered between the cylinder studs, with the purpose of preventing the rods from rubbing up and down against the crankcase.

This gave me a fun photo-op, I put on the fancy valve and cam-end covers, tossed in the cams and put the pulley's on, and even put the intake manifolds on, to "mock-up" what a final version might look like.  (ALSO, without the cylinders/heads, it doesn't look very much like anything important, but rather a blob of mechanical gears, etc).   Nothing was put on for "permanence", no gaskets nor tightened bolts - just a teaser mock-up to keep morale high on this end.

Pics for you guys - the smallest token of appreciation I can give for your help thus far, taken with the iPhone with "HDR" mode selected:

         

         



         

Knocked the brown tarnish off the stock headers, and mocked up the Arrow carbon high pipes, and you can see the MH900e style billet exhaust flanges, and the Aella stainless exhaust half rings.

         

Close-up of Aella Stainless Exhaust Manifold / Gasket Half-rings

[brad black]

i've seen quite a few failed 2v rockers on heads i've stripped for work.  usually they never come out and it's hard to check them without a lot of disassembly work so no one knows if they have issues.  i get them redone by the people who do my 4v rockers, a local industrial hardchromer.  strip, polish, chrome 50 microns thick, hydrogen de-imbrittle, polish.

some pins are loose, some tight.  maybe later ones are looser.

the shims got more consistant with later engines, to the point of 1 thick one either side of the closer, 2 thin ones either side of the opener locating clip.  earlier ones you have to shim as required with the available sizes - a pita.  depends who has been in there before too - that's a real unknown with them.  people do some wierd stuff.

dunno about dlc.

[ducatiz]

Regarding painting/coating the cylinders..

I have painted them using Lauer's (LCW) Duraheat and had good success, depending on prep.  I never thought about the heat retention issue though and I asked them about it.  

"Duraheat has a metallic component which aids in heat shedding.  We have had many customers use it for motorcycle engines on Vtwins which as you know are heat sensitive.  You should have no negative issues with using Duraheat on your cylinders."

[junior varsity]

Gotcha.   I had shot a message to Swain-Tech coatings to see about their heat dispersing thermal coatings, but the reply I got was that they parts coming to them would not only need to be bare (as I had anticipated) but also in like-new cleanliness.   Well that ain't happening, so its already off the list.   Next 'concern' was that he said their thermal coating, which is black (and I was thinking would look great), was not a cosmetic finish, and certainly not look so pretty and all after a season of use and the associated heat cycles - he emphasized it was a performance coating, etc.

Something like that might be better on a non-naked bike (like if I am able to pull off the 2v SBK project at some point).

[junior varsity]

No huge developments or anything here.   Got the sprag and layshaft timing gears back from Fast Frank Racing after being lightened.   I may send all the gears that are sitting on the table off to be coated - but I'll need to do some more reading on that.  I figure if its 'nice' to do, might as well while they are out.

Here's the lightened gears



here's the 'all-the-gears' picture; the lightened gears along with the vee two primary gears & oil pump gear

[ducatiz]

holey lightened gears, batman!

nice



i assume balanced too?

[battlecry]

 

[junior varsity]

holey lightened gears, batman!
i assume balanced too?

man, thinking back on the ones that were lightened by Frank, I had asked him so many questions - I seem to have forgotten this one - or at least I don't recall bringing it up (I was picking his brain about piston machining for this motor, and crankcase machining for pivot location on the 2vSBK project).   I'll hit him up and ask him promptly - I plan on getting more done (the same ones on my 'all-put-together' M900 when I put in the veetwo lightweight primaries in it).


with the VeeTwo primaries - I have to 'assume so' as they weren't lightened after the fact - they come this way from VeeTwo as a lightweight 3-gear kit (Primary, Driven, Oil Pump), with a hunting tooth ratio and a spec sheet about the hardness and what not.   

Now that I see Brook Henry has a new website up, I plan on asking him a few questions about the VeeTwo 900 cams (-210 for this bike, -212 for my other M900 when it gets short manifolds, etc) and also what grinds they have for the 1000/1100DS (and evo) so I can compare all the 1100 cam options since there is "a lot" out there:
M1100
M1100evo
Hyper
DP Hypermotard Racing (96451008B)
DP Racing 1000/1100DS (DU14812441B/DU14812451B) (if different from DP Hyper cams)
NCR
V2 (multiple grinds)

I'll see if I can ask him any manufacturing related aspects about the primaries while I'm at it.


So, opinions on 'gear-coatings'?
I see there is:
Jet-Hot Gear & Camclad: http://www.jet-hot.com/sdfcoatings.html
HP Coatings Anti-friction Coatings: http://www.hpcoatings.com/hpc_antifriction.aspx
Performance Coatings Dry Film Lubricant: http://www.performancecoatings.com/index2.html