1199 Photo leak!

[He Man]

frameless in 2009, but that year stoner was pretty much out, however he still from time to time made the bike competative. if i understand it right, the only reason stoner could take that bike to that kind of limit was because he had some serious balls and trust in the bikes ability.

[EvilSteve]

You guys are right, I looked it up, it wasn't frameless in 2007.

As for arguments about the GP bikes, I just don't think they apply to a street bike.

[Raux]

You guys are right, I looked it up, it wasn't frameless in 2007.

As for arguments about the GP bikes, I just don't think they apply to a street bike.

the front connected to the motor and not to the rear it was frameless as per the definition that ducati has
just the air box was separate instead of integrated

As far as bayliss he's on the payroll he's not going to say it has the same issues. as the gp bike
until this bike tech wins with another rider I'm not convinced
When or better if it does then i will concede it is a good bike

[Triple J]

until this bike tech wins with another rider I'm not convinced

+1

It may be fine for a SBK, since they're quite a bit different from GP bikes...but I want to see.

[junior varsity]

It may be fine for a SBK, since they're quite a bit different from GP bikes...but I want to see.

i'm not sure how different they are - wheels, brakes, motor, chain drive, swingarm, forks, tank, clipon bars, etc - sure they are each slightly different, but not different animals. its not flat-tracker to road-racer different. Heck, They race them on many of the same tracks!  So what's the difference in GP to SBK that would make lack of front-end feel "ok"?

There's an issue when there are two former world champs on the current machine who've done great on other manufacturers rides, but are having difficulty with this bucket o' bolts.

[Raux]

i'm not sure how different they are - wheels, brakes, motor, chain drive, swingarm, forks, tank, clipon bars, etc - sure they are each slightly different, but not different animals. its not flat-tracker to road-racer different. Heck, They race them on many of the same tracks!  So what's the difference in GP to SBK that would make lack of front-end feel "ok"?

There's an issue when there are two former world champs on the current machine who've done great on other manufacturers rides, but are having difficulty with this bucket o' bolts.

also the fact that the specs are close to the same. @400 lbs and @200hp

[Triple J]

So what's the difference in GP to SBK that would make lack of front-end feel "ok"?

Horsepower, motor configuration and power delivery, front tire grip and the forces that are put back into the chassis, 800 riding style vs. SBK riding style...off the top of my head. I'm not saying a lcak of feel would be OK, but maybe it won't be as noticeable on a SBK. 

There's an issue when there are two former world champs on the current machine who've done great on other manufacturers rides, but are having difficulty with this bucket o' bolts.

Agreed. I'm very curious to see how the new chassis works on the SBK. It could very well be a POS.

[$Lindz$]

Tires also.

The MotoGP Bridgestones are a very hard carcass tire so when you're at big lean angles it transmits a lot of feedback, but it also means the frame has to be the more pliant 'suspension'. Back when Stoner was winning on the Duc, Bridgestone weren't the only tire in MotoGP. Even as they became the spec tire, they were making a special front for the D16. Now they've done away with that and every team gets the same tires. That's why this season, more than any other, Ducati have been having problems with their "front end". The other 3 teams giving Bridgestone data and input are 1.) Japanese also, and 2.) aluminum twin spar frames. There is no reason for them to cater to Ducati anymore.

The 'frameless' design has the ability to be lighter than a twin spar. This is negated in MotoGP, however, because the minimum weight is so drastically heavier than what Ducati are ABLE to achieve with their bike. For a road bike there is nothing saying you have to make your bike heavier. In SBK the minimum weight is apparently not a hindrance to Ducati either, as Prezioso only complained about MotoGP weight limits.

In SBK (and especially the real world) they have tires that aren't such a hard construction as the Bridgestone GP tires (you're not seeing nearly the same loading and stress on the tires). The spec Pirellis in SBK are a much softer carcass (as are all other tires) so they are able to better soak up bumps mid-corner vs. relying on the frame to do all the work as in MotoGP.

[IdZer0]

I wonder whether the DP catalogue will list a Alu or a CF airbox  

[junior varsity]

I think the minimum weight rule is BS - these are supposed to be prototype machines - If a manufacturer can produce a 220hp 800cc bike tipping the scales at 295 #, then so be it. I can only imagine the rule exists to prevent Honda from bankrupting the competitors in this fashion (instead they are allowed to have a 5-man factory team )

[$Lindz$]

I think a lot of Honda's performance this last season has been the culmination of several things, not least of which is the termination of the F1 program. They spent so much time effort and money in F1 and sacrificed so many seasons for "the future" and they finally had a world-class car and then they quit. Brawn took the car, put a Mercedes engine in it and dominated 2009.

They've been the same way in MotoGP, always 'looking towards the future' and sacrificing the present. Once the F1 program stopped they redistributed those lot of engineers. Many went back to Motorcycles and you get them finally working out how to include seamless shift transmissions and stuff like that.

[TAftonomos]

Tires also.

The MotoGP Bridgestones are a very hard carcass tire so when you're at big lean angles it transmits a lot of feedback, but it also means the frame has to be the more pliant 'suspension'. Back when Stoner was winning on the Duc, Bridgestone weren't the only tire in MotoGP. Even as they became the spec tire, they were making a special front for the D16. Now they've done away with that and every team gets the same tires. That's why this season, more than any other, Ducati have been having problems with their "front end". The other 3 teams giving Bridgestone data and input are 1.) Japanese also, and 2.) aluminum twin spar frames. There is no reason for them to cater to Ducati anymore.

The 'frameless' design has the ability to be lighter than a twin spar. This is negated in MotoGP, however, because the minimum weight is so drastically heavier than what Ducati are ABLE to achieve with their bike. For a road bike there is nothing saying you have to make your bike heavier. In SBK the minimum weight is apparently not a hindrance to Ducati either, as Prezioso only complained about MotoGP weight limits.

In SBK (and especially the real world) they have tires that aren't such a hard construction as the Bridgestone GP tires (you're not seeing nearly the same loading and stress on the tires). The spec Pirellis in SBK are a much softer carcass (as are all other tires) so they are able to better soak up bumps mid-corner vs. relying on the frame to do all the work as in MotoGP.

The Spec tire is THE problem.

Can't move the wide V4 forward anymore cause it will foul the tire.

Can't get the front tire hot enough because you can't push hard enough as the front end feel is to vague (not my words, VR and NH). 

Use a soft front and it goes away after the first part of the race, and the ducs start to drift back.  Have cold temps and they are in real trouble.  When the venue has been hotter, they have done better.

VR said the 12' bike was better, because the motor/speed loaded up the front better, which provided heat, etc.  Other reason was the bike can "ride around" the tire issue easier, as the 1000cc bike makes more torque.

Most of the above was straight out of an article.  When I find the link, I'll post it.

[Howie]

Another article:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/09/17/finding-flexibility-in-motogp-racing/?zeta_mid=HFM2_572783&zeta_rid=80693876

Lots of variables, the most difficult being the rider.

[Travman]

[ducatiz]

So they are testing them with American riders now?