Newbie question - Countersteering seemed to not work

[justin-branam]

So, I have had my bike for a few months, and have put about 1K miles on it so far (a 2001 m750). I am getting fairly comfortable with it, so a few of my buddies and I went for a more "curvy" ride this weekend. Nothing extreme, but a few tight 90 degree turns and some reducing radius turns. At one point when we were doing a pretty tight turn at about 25 mph, I hit a point where I could have sworn as I pushed harder into the turn, it actually tried to push the bike back up straight rather than turning harder. It did spook me a bit, so I didn't take any of the turns as tight for the rest of the ride (I reeeeaaaally dont want to mess up my road racing tank  ). I was trying to be concious of keeping a constant speed or slightly accelerating through the turns, but I did let off ever so slightly as I felt this happen becasue it seemed if I didn't, that I wasnt going to stay on the road. And yes, I know I probably shouldn't have done that. So short version, I pushed harder, but the bike didn't seem to turn tighter.

I will point out two things, one, my chicken strips are still about an inch wide on each side, so I know I am not turning/leaning past the bikes capability by any stretch of the imagination, and second, the tires are the Metzeler M1's so I know they are a bit outdated. I will also mention I have already ordered a pair of Pilot Road 2's to replace them.

Now my questions. Does this sound like it could be something attributed to the tires or maybe the slower speed? Or was it just my riding style and lack of experience (not trusting the bike)? I have a feeling I know the answer, but has anyone else experienced this, or offer an explanation as to why this occured (or why I imagined this occuring, hahah)?

[positivecarry]

Countersteering always works...sounds like these things caused you to stand up and run wide:

- Rolling off the gas while in the turn (Keith Code's Survival Reaction #1) will transfer weight forward and make the bike stand up and run wide. 

- You may be too tight on the bars (Keith Code's Survival Reaction #2), which will prevent the bike suspension's geometry from turning efficiently.  Concentrate on relaxing your outside arm and use only your in side arm to steer so you're not fighting the wheel/suspension turning.

- Look where you want to go (Keith Code's Survival Reaction #3-5)...if you're looking where you're afraid of ending up (running wide), that's exactly where you're going to go.

[Triple J]

^^ What he said

[justin-branam]

Thanks for your input. Looks like I will head out to a large parking lot this weekend and practice some more on my tight turns. I still have a lot to learn and get used to, and it is very helpful to have the knowledge of much more experienced riders at my disposal on the forums. Thanks again 

[Slide Panda]

As you speculate speed may play a role as well. There's a lot to motorcycle dynamics. You might pick up the Keith Code book referenced above as well as Lee Parks Total Control. Lee Parks also has on bike classes which you might look into.

If you have not - you might find someone (a shop) with good knowledge of suspension and have them tweak yours. Having an improperly set suspension can have discomforting effects in a turn.

Don't rely on the chicken strips as any real measure. DSS monsters (in stock trim) like a 750 will touch down hard parts like the exhaust or side stand well before you reach the max lean angle a tire is capable of. Also rider body position has a dramatic effect on lean angles of the bike. At speed, putting your body to the outside of the turn will necessitate more lean on the bike to get through turn X. Neutral body position will require less, and getting your body weight to the inside requires even less lean angle for the same turn at the same speed.

So a rider with better body position and control will have wider strips than their counterpart with poor body position given the same bike, same speed and same turns. Just something to ponder.

[ManaloEA]

+1 to what positivecarry said.

And something else to consider...

What I found helpful to fix this is to clamp the gas tank with the knees (firm but not squeezing), loosen the arms so there is little to no pressure on the bars, and lean your shoulder forward and into the turn as you look through the turn with your head. Resist the temptation to look at where your front tire is at, rather look to where you want your front tire to go.

You can also do a search on Youtube for "knee down". Some of the riding tips there will be helpful.

[Cloner]

Countersteering does NOT always work!  At low speeds (think parking lot) the bike tracks in line with the tire.  The force that keeps the tire tracking inline is always present.  However, this effect is overcome as the moment induced by road friction being applied some distance from the centerline of the bike, which occurs when the bars are turned, increases with speed. 

Trail keeps things in line when the steering head is straight.  However, when the bars are turned the contact patch moves off the centerline of the bike due to the distance between the point where the theoretical steering axis contacts the road and actual contact patch, due to trail.  The force produced by this moment increases with velocity. 

The "battle" between these contradicting forces leads to an odd occurence which is virtually impossible to find in practice.  Theoretically, there is a speed at which the bike continues to go straight despite some steering input!  I've never been able to find it, but mathematically it must exist.   

I suspect you were going slower than 25 mph, as usually this phenomenon occurs at around 15 mph or less, depending on geometry.  To avoid this in future, just go faster.   

[markz2004]

There are a lot of countersteering threads here, but who can resist posting to a new one.  Especially since the OP seems genuine in their interest.

On my daily commute there is a long clover leaf exit I need to take.  New bike/new rider, so I've been taking this at various speeds (30-45mph).  What is really amazing is that if you push on the right bar the bike lays over and arches beautifully in a right hand curve.  Pull back on the right bar, and the bike quickly stands up and loses/lessens the arched turn.  The clover leaf in question has two lanes, so being directly next to a car is a bit nerve wracking, but by pull & push you can really change position within the lane.  Really a fun part of my commute and since it's relatively the same curve each day, it is a great opportunity to learn and feel the countersteering.  Of course countersteering is more pronounced at speed.

~ proficient motorcycle riding is a good book to read ~

[CDawg]

+1 to what positivecarry and cloner said.

As a test to prove it to yourself, steer with only one hand.  Be sure to try this generally and have your free hand near the appropriate handle bar.  You will find the bike fall into a lean very easily when you aren't unconsciously fighting it with your other hand.

[OT]

Thanks for your input. Looks like I will head out to a large parking lot this weekend and practice some more on my tight turns. I still have a lot to learn and get used to, and it is very helpful to have the knowledge of much more experienced riders at my disposal on the forums. Thanks again  

Lots of good suggestions here.

Countersteering works because it points the front wheel away from the direction that you want to turn, which destabilizes the bike and causes it to 'fall over' in the direction that you want to turn.  The weight of the spinning wheel & tire acts like a top (gyroscope) and balances the lean angle against the tendency of the bike/rider's weight to cause the bike to completely fall over.  At 25-mph, the bike is going fast enough that countersteering will safely steer the bike.

1) Check that you're actually moving the bar forward...it's not unusual for a new rider to simply extend the arm while leaning the body (shying) away from the turn - the net effect is that the bar hardly/never moves, although one thinks it does, and the bike keeps going straight ahead.  This is more likely to occur when the rider's attention gets locked on the entrance of the turn (target fixation), instead of looking through the turn.  Even if you knew the roads from riding them in a car, the nakedness of doing it on a bike the first time can cause some trepidation.

2) Try the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's SLOW, LOOK, LEAN, ROLL procedure for turns: SLOW the bike to a safe entry speed; LOOK into and through the turn, LEAN yourself and the bike in the direction you want to turn; ROLL on the throttle to hold the lean angle and exit from the turn.  This procedure works and is useful because it doesn't ask you to consciously countersteer - the countersteering seems to occur as a reflexive move to the leaning over.

3) Go to that parking lot and try doing moderate-radius Figure-8s over and over around some permanent reference points (e.g., painted marks on the ground, your own empty milk containers, etc)....if you're having trouble with these, then it's time to take the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Basic Rider Course or the Lee Park's Total Control Course.

3) Don't push yourself to 'keep up' with other riders - always go at your own pace.

[CDawg]

1) Check that you're actually moving the bar forward...

+1.  Or you could pushing in a downwards fashion.  Try to keep your forearm parallel to the ground so when you apply pressure on the handle bars it is all directed towards moving the bar and not trying to bend it into the ground.

[Dellikose]

If you haven't taken it already, the MSF course deals with some countersteering and is a great starting point on all of the fundamentals of riding motorcycles. They also offer more advanced classes depending on your skill level.

A tip though, sign up early...like February or March because they fill up fast!

[WhiteStripe]

Will just weigh in with one personal experience that i think is in line with others.  In my first year of riding i started to notice that when i got a little nervous in a corner i had a tendency to let my outside hand grip too hard and my arm would stiffen really impact the "steering" (or "counter-steering" if you will) that was going on with the inside hand.

Reading Lee Parks book helped.  I spent some time practicing easy slow corners with one hand off or lightly resting on the bars and it really pulled together what i knew on 'paper' with real life riding.

Its sort of funny looking back several thousand miles and three years - a corner that used to clench my butt checks at 30 three summers ago I can now take at 50 while on my cell phone (j/k)

[Duc796canada]

a corner that used to clench my butt checks at 30 three summers ago I can now take at 50 while on my cell phone (j/k)

Good one, hehe

[dk1six]

Its sort of funny looking back several thousand miles and three years - a corner that used to clench my butt checks at 30 three summers ago I can now take at 50 while on my cell phone (j/k)

That was good, in a "I can just picture it" sort of way...made me laugh.

This is my third year back riding after some 25 or so years of not, all three were after the MSF course and on a kawasaki.  I'm a new duc rider and have to admit I only have a few hours now on it, an 07 s4r but one thing amongst many that are burned into my riding habits is the SLOW, LOOK LEAN, ROLL.  I use it every day because it helps to keep me grounded and safe, I believe and makes counter steering more committed to muscle memory than an entire concerted effort...if that makes sense.

My own next problem now is listening to or not, everyone telling me the bike's not streetable which I can't really agree on.