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Author Topic: new rider looking for riding advice (long post...sorry)  (Read 5041 times)
mrpetebojangles
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« on: September 26, 2011, 08:25:09 PM »

Hey all,

Love the board and visit it multiple times throughout the day. I have learned so much both before and after my 09 Monster 696 purchase. It's really been invaluable. I'm looking forward to installing a 14T to my bike to make lower gears more manageable on my first service visit due to advice from this board. As I get more money (low on that from the bike and the riding gear I've purchased  Smiley )I plan on also getting a Sergeant seat, and a bar riser to fit my 6'7'' frame more comfortably, but all in all the bike has been rather comfortable.

 Anyways, let me first preface this by stating that I was both excited and terrified about the idea of buying a motorcycle, not really so much to the dollar cost, but I'm not one to embark on something that could get me seriously injured/killed and I'm typically a pretty cautious person. I stayed awake many nights thinking if a bike was truly for me and went to look at what is now my prized possession almost every day for about a month. I'm sure the salesmen were starting to think I may never pull the trigger, I'm very glad I did.

Before I got the bike I spent literally hundreds of hours reading online forums and going through books like "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough, and this is one I still read through certain areas of. I then took the MSF course to see if actually BEING on a bike would be something I'd enjoy, and within hours I fell in love. So much so that I bought my bike after my 2nd of the 3 day class, and got my license immediately after the 3rd day. I had planned on starting slow and just riding around the neighborhood for about a month or so, but after a couple hours I left the neighborhood and have since put about 600 miles on my bike within the first week of owning it. That was also a week where I worked nearly everyday, so I'd wake up in the morning, get on the roads when traffic was light, and drive around in the evening. After the second day I took it on the freeway at night, and the third up some mountain roads in my area. As I drove through these areas, my conscience was full of my MSF instructors voice and the countless texts I read through and images I scanned across the internet and books. I look as far ahead as possible, I slow when I see cars that could possibly turn out, I maintain a safety bubble and shield with seconds of possible reaction time ahead of me, I turn my head and look through turns, I enter curves slowly after some braking and maintain a steady throttle through the turn and opening the throttle slightly leaving the turn, I look where I want to go and I never drive faster than what I feel I'm ready for. With these things in mind I've yet to have had any close calls or real worries. I try to keep my mind in the game at all times and I'm always scanning for hazards. I'm blessed for having amazing eye sight and I'm able to scope out things such as gravel far far in advance, and looking through turns while maintaining a steady speed has helped me avoid things in curves. It was funny, a few days ago I was riding up a mountain road to Virginia City here in the Reno/Tahoe area, a road I used to drive up many many times, I wasn't AT ALL intending to speed up it, but following the things I've read and heard I got up the hill faster than I ever have in my sporty little car. I wasn't gunning it in the straights either, but steady acceleration through the turns really sped me up I guess. I surprised myself very much. It all felt so steady and smooth, and the rush of counter steering forcefully but not sharply or suddenly late into the apex of a turn has been one of the greatest sensations I've experienced in my short life of 22 years. This is by no means supposed to come off as bragging, but is simply a self assessment of my riding thus far and to provide the reader with a bit of insight. One thing I've gathered, is that to me riding and following a line is reminiscent of what I do on a snowboard. In terms of turning your head, following a line etc. Others may disagree, but I think those skills translated over really well.

I've never been one that's felt the need to prove myself, and I have no problem when guys on super bikes pass me with waving tshirts on their backs as my own safety is paramount to risky adrenaline rushes.

Because of all of this, I'm scared because I know that I probably shouldn't be as comfortable on this bike as I feel I am. This is still a brand new venture for me and I'm still trying to examine from the mistakes of others, things I should avoid.

One thing as I mentioned in another board, is getting used to the powerful brakes on the bike. Coming out of the MSF class I learned smooth progressive braking, but with 4 fingers. I've since learned that 1 or 2 finger braking is the norm? I feel as if braking is probably my greatest opportunity. One thing that happened to me on the last day of riding my bike, before a work trip came about that I'm on now, I had a bit of a spill. I was going through my neighborhood in I think 2nd gear going about 35-40 mph and I wanted to practice a strong brake but not a panic stop at a stop sign. It was 8 am in the morning with no cars about. I pulled the clutch in, applied both brakes lightly and then strongly, downshifted to first and as I came to a stop I think I must of let the clutch out to quickly because the engine stalled right before coming to a stop, the bike lost power, the bike came to a pretty quick halt as I grabbed the front brake, I think I may have turned the handlebars to the right slightly to better align myself with the stopping point, and before I knew it, the bike felt super heavy as I was putting down my foot for a complete stop and the bike tipped over to the right. I had my feet down firmly by that point, but I was caught off guard by the sudden tip that my left arm had almost all of the weight of the bike, and I was unable to lift it with the lean it was at, and I literally laid the bike down at no speed and on it's side it was. I stood up and over the bike, put the kickstand down (as I'd seen in a youtube video if your bike is on its side) and lifted it back up. The bike has no damage minus a few scratches on the plastic bar end, and it seemed to of knocked the right mirror slightly out of alignment and scratched the plastic on it's outside cover. It happened quickly and was I was a bit embarrassed. I could of not laid the bike down at all had I reacted more quickly, but I'm glad the bike suffered virtually 0 damage and I learned a valuable lesson. I hypothesize that I had wanted to feel what a strong brake felt like, I grabbed the brake too hard to quick, before allowing time for weight to properly transfer to the front wheel, turning my right handlebar caused the bike to fall as much of the weight was on the front wheel and letting my clutch out with no throttle in first is what killed the engine.

What is the correct process of approaching a stop at speed? I've been applying both brakes and kicking down gears as I slow to a stop. I know some use engine braking and I've only experimented with that a couple times. I've heard over time it's not good for the bike.

One thing I'd also like help with is braking in a lean in a turn. I've virtually used 0 brake in turns while I'm in a lean and I've either down shifted, rolled off the throttle, or applied brake or a bit of all of these to get to an appropriate entry speed into a curve before I'm in that said curve. But if I had to brake in a curve what would I do. During the MSF class we're taught to bring the bike back up before braking, but on a real street this could possibly take us off the road or more likely would have us brake and stop in an oncoming lane (in a right turn). Also what is trail braking as I've heard mentioned. I'm very afraid to use my rear brake in a turn as I've heard of high siding and that's not something I want to experience.

One other mistake I can think of that I made, is I was coming down a road (Mt. Rose Highway) coming down from lake tahoe which is full of 20 mph sharp turns. I came into a sharp left 20 mph recommended turn at probably around 30-35, well within my comfort zone, and I got off the line I had intended and swung out a bit to the right further than I wanted and closer to the guardrail than I wanted. I think I looked at the guard rail a bit too long and there was also sand near the middle of my turn that I was trying to avoid but was probably looking at. I think I swung wide as I wanted to make sure I came well within the turn, as over the guardrail was a multi-hundred foot drop and I was probably thinking too much about that haha. But I think my late rear brake caused the bike to stand up longer than I wanted, I wasnt enough on the throttle or at all early in the turn and I drifted wide because of that. Was a bit scary, as for all turns, that was one I wanted to be smoothest. But maybe I psyched myself out and paid too much attention to the guard rail.

Anyways, I know this is one long post but any driving input around my mistakes or around braking I'd really appreciate. I'm consistently looking for best practices to implement into my ride and this post is a summarization of my feelings thus far. I know I'm still a complete novice but I know this research has helped me heaps already.

Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 08:56:14 AM »

What is the correct process of approaching a stop at speed? I've been applying both brakes and kicking down gears as I slow to a stop. I know some use engine braking and I've only experimented with that a couple times. I've heard over time it's not good for the bike.

Quite a narrative there...

Well, Max braking should be done with the bike 100% upright with the bars straight - just like the MSF told you. If it's more casual, the same principles apply. Line up so you can come in as straight and level as possible and gradually apply the brakes. Not magic - just practice.

I read your other post - and it just seemed like a newer rider error. Nothing epically wrong, just inexperience bit you.

Engine braking will not hurt the bike. The only time it might is if it caused the engine to over-rev - which will not happen on the 696 due to the design of the clutch.

One thing I'd also like help with is braking in a lean in a turn. I've virtually used 0 brake in turns while I'm in a lean and I've either down shifted, rolled off the throttle, or applied brake or a bit of all of these to get to an appropriate entry speed into a curve before I'm in that said curve. But if I had to brake in a curve what would I do. During the MSF class we're taught to bring the bike back up before braking, but on a real street this could possibly take us off the road or more likely would have us brake and stop in an oncoming lane (in a right turn). Also what is trail braking as I've heard mentioned. I'm very afraid to use my rear brake in a turn as I've heard of high siding and that's not something I want to experience.

Again the stuff the MSF told you was 100% spot on. Remember that you have limited traction - turning uses some, so does any change in your speed beyond just coasting down - so applying the brakes or acceleration.

That being said, modern sporting bikes and their modern sporting tires have a lot of grip in most cases. IF you need to reduce your speed in a turn just do so in an controlled gradual manner. It's the sharp grab of the brakes - that panic reaction that dumps people.

A touch of the brakes to adjust speed and pouring it on the stoppers to come to a fast stop are very different. You can *gradually* apply the brakes in a turn with the bike leaned over with no ill effect. Hitting the brakes in a turn with the bike leaned over doesn't mean you'll automatically fall - it's not black and white like that.

Something else to consider as you develop is not braking to correct your line but controlling the bike via weight and lean. If one is running wide, most times shifting your weight more to the inside will bring the bike with.

Trail braking doesn't refer to your rear brake - it's trailing off the brakes.

And don't be afraid of a dab on the rear - just a touch won't lock up the rear. Gentle, gradual.

One other mistake I can think of that I made, is I was coming down a road (Mt. Rose Highway) coming down from lake tahoe which is full of 20 mph sharp turns. I came into a sharp left 20 mph recommended turn at probably around 30-35, well within my comfort zone, and I got off the line I had intended and swung out a bit to the right further than I wanted and closer to the guardrail than I wanted. I think I looked at the guard rail a bit too long and there was also sand near the middle of my turn that I was trying to avoid but was probably looking at. I think I swung wide as I wanted to make sure I came well within the turn, as over the guardrail was a multi-hundred foot drop and I was probably thinking too much about that haha. But I think my late rear brake caused the bike to stand up longer than I wanted, I wasnt enough on the throttle or at all early in the turn and I drifted wide because of that. Was a bit scary, as for all turns, that was one I wanted to be smoothest. But maybe I psyched myself out and paid too much attention to the guard rail.

Sounds like over thinking and target fixation there. Back off a notch or two in that turn to help clear your mind.
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-Throttle's on the right, so are the brakes.  Good luck.
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- '07 Triumph 675 Track bike.
Goat_Herder
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 12:16:24 PM »

Sounds to me that you have done plenty of homework but needed more "real world" experience to feel more comfortable riding in streets.  I was looking for the exact same thing when I got back into riding 4 years ago.  I had a pitbike and a scooter when I was a kid but I, too, didn't have much experience riding on street/freeway/twisty.

What I found particularly helpful was Lee Parks' Total Control.  I picked that up and read it cover to cover, even before I got back in the saddle.  It would address the concerns/problems that you have described in your post, i.e. throttle control, turning / corning, body positioning, braking techniques, target fixation, etc.  I would pick a thing to work on each time I go out riding. 

I highly recommend the book.  It will give you ideas and things to practice on. 
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mrpetebojangles
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 04:10:14 PM »

I have that total control book already :p Haven't gone into that one yet. Sad Panda, you have a knack for following my threads. I gotta say thank you for your input in my original posts, as your responses helped me in making my decision to getting the bike. Thanks!

New question. How do you deal with spending weeks away from home and therefor weeks away from the bike. Arghhh! I'll try lightly applying the brakes in some turns, but lightlyyyyy. Using the rear brake in a turn I've heard helps tighten the turn if need be?
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2011, 08:52:49 AM »

New question. How do you deal with spending weeks away from home and therefor weeks away from the bike. Arghhh! I'll try lightly applying the brakes in some turns, but lightlyyyyy. Using the rear brake in a turn I've heard helps tighten the turn if need be?

That's TWO questions!

Spending time away - ease back in. Riding a bike it a learned skill. Sure some folks are more adept at it than others - but you still must practice to be proficient. if you have to take time off, it's best to back of a bit for a period.

Rear brake, front brake... brakes are brakes. Rear wheel isn't using a portion of it's traction to change direction like the front - but really it's the change in speed thats ultimately changing the line
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-Throttle's on the right, so are the brakes.  Good luck.
- '00 M900S with all the farkles
- '08 KTM 690 StupidMoto
- '07 Triumph 675 Track bike.
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 10:37:50 AM »

New question. How do you deal with spending weeks away from home and therefor weeks away from the bike. Arghhh! I'll try lightly applying the brakes in some turns, but lightlyyyyy. Using the rear brake in a turn I've heard helps tighten the turn if need be?

As SP said, take it easy when you get started again.  It will come back quickly, but you won't be quite at the same level as when you left.

Also you can do some things to practice when you are away.  Visualize yourself going through a turn and mentally go through all the steps involved, slowly.  Do the same for braking and other things you are working on.  If you are driving when you are away, then practice looking ahead as far as possible and evaluate possible hazards.  Practice looking through the turns.

Since you are, in your own estimation, a complete novice, I'd recommend against trying to brake in turns right now.  Work on setting up an appropriate speed and line for each corner ahead of time.
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mrpetebojangles
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2011, 12:47:50 PM »

Maybe I was misunderstood. I was more so speaking to the fact that I miss my monster and need coping advice with not being able to ride it daily! haha. But you do bring up some valid points.
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 06:54:46 AM »

I cope with beers and swearing.

You ski? Downhill in particular. For me riding a bike is a bit like that. When you take a long break you still have the skills - that long earned muscle memory. But it gets rusty and needs a brush off. So you take a few easy runs, push harder after lunch... go a little harder the next day.

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-Throttle's on the right, so are the brakes.  Good luck.
- '00 M900S with all the farkles
- '08 KTM 690 StupidMoto
- '07 Triumph 675 Track bike.
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 10:10:54 PM »

If you are traveling for business... try to work out a way to rent a bike instead of a car waytogo
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newbie_mike
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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2011, 11:37:16 AM »

+1 on cornering on a bike feeling like snowboarding. 

One thing you could work on is not letting your body position/weight shifting etc affect your steering inputs.  From your example of hard braking causing you to tip over - it doesnt seem like you brake too hard - you didnt lose traction right?

More like the sudden deceleration caused you to put too much weight over the front wheels, making you steer when you didnt intend to.  Keep a tight core and keep your arms loose - it will help you feel more planted and one-with-the-bike. 

On braking in a turn, you are right to avoid it, but if needed, make sure you adjust your lean angle to match your speed or you will lowside.

Otherwise, seems like you are on the right track.
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« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 02:35:59 PM »

Well I was on the right path up until my leg brake yesterday during a low speed u-turn.arghhh! Posted about it in the general forums. 
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