2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue

[Curmudgeon]

Looking for feedback and enlightenment from M796 owners who have the same issue. Others need not apply. 

Since about 500 miles my 796 does not start on the first try as it did when new. It now has 1,200 miles and has had its ECU adaptive functions and TPS reset at the first service at 900 miles three days ago. No codes present or stored, all systems and sensors functioning and all parameters nominal.

After leaving the bike for a day or so, it takes 15 - 20 cranks with maybe 5 - 10 key (ECU wake-up cycles) before it will run and maintain 1,200 RPM. Initially it fires once, RPM to 400, and quits. Finally after ~ 15 attempts it catches. It takes no throttle until it's running. Neither my dealer, who is good, nor Ducati tech are familiar with this issue.

Normally after I go for a ride, I clean up the bike, top up the tank and pop on a Battery Tender Jr. until it's "green". Fuel is non-ethanol 93 (M+R/2) and/or 260 GT 100 unleaded racing fuel. I top up tanks to reduce condensation as I always have but have left an air gap between the fuel and filler neck as per the manual. (Since my first service, the evaps canister is removed, eliminating that as an issue).

When the bike has been run recently, it starts as when new, i.e., fires immediately and the RPMs go to 2,000 briefly and then settle to the nominal 1,200. When it is being "cranky" (no pun), when it finally decides to start, it fires and idles at 1,200. If I then stop it and restart, then it does the "correct" start with the revs rising to 2,000 before settling to 1,200.

Neutral switch, clutch switch, side stand switch all working. Immobilizer also fine both on the Ducati computer and because it fires once or twice before it dies.

Am I missing a protocol here or failing to observe something? Today, after sitting for two days it refused to start. I had intentionally not topped up the charge on the battery when I put it away because I'd reasoned that the ECU might have a protection circuit for higher voltages. Today it was reading 12,6 volts when I tried to start and failed.

Of course, it always starts eventually, but not only is this annoying but also can't be wonderful for the starter...

Any similar experiences, insights?

[elgallo73]

Are you using the fast idle lever?  We just hashed this it in another thread for the Monster 696 and here is what we came up with.

Insert the key and turn to the "On" position with the fast idle lever in the "Off" position, after initialization (screen shows "Monster 796" message and then reads odometer), turn the fast idle lever to the "full on" position (all the way back).  Then give it a try.  The bike should start and head upwards of 2,000 ~ 2,500 rpm.  You can then adjust as necessary to give a reasonable warm up idle speed, I usually use around 1,000 ~ 1,500 rpm.

An alternative method, which I use, particularly when it is cold outside, <60 degrees fahrenheit, is to go through the initialization procedure as described, then press "Start" while rolling the throttle back 1/4 to 1/3 turn.  The bike should start and head upwards of 2,000 rpm.  You can then move the fast idle while holding the throttle at a reasonable rpm.  Release the throttle and adjust the fast idle as necessary.

If it helps, my 696 behaved much the same way and is not too different from your 796, so these steps should work for you unless something is seriously wrong...

Hope this helps and your mileage will vary...

Regards,

Garry

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks. Nice try. The 796 is a completely different bike and has no cold start lever. The ECU obviously has totally different protocols and cold start strategies prior to the Lamda sensor being hot enough to work. This I observed on the Ducati computer.

Throttle also has zero effect until the engine is running. 696 cold start issues/procedures are well known. I'm looking for feedback on 796. M1100 and 1100 evo are also different bikes.

My 796 has no fueling issues once running, unlike the 1100's, except abrupt throttle response in 1st gear after downshifting through all the gears coming to a stop. That one can be tricky, like an accelerator pump x3. Once bitten, I'm now aware. Kevin Ash noted it in his review. http://ashonbikes.com/content/ducati-monster-796-review

[elgallo73]

Sorry, my apologies, was not sure how different the bikes were and if they were similar, thought it might help...

[thought]

no issues here for me once i got out of my break in period... but i also got termi's/ecu/air filter installed at 400 miles so that might have changed the fueling.

it did happen to me when i first got the bike though, but it's since gone away.  at around 6000 miles now... i'm also running 5w-40 rotella though, maybe try a lighter weight oil and see if that helps at all?

[Curmudgeon]

no issues here for me once i got out of my break in period... but i also got termi's/ecu/air filter installed at 400 miles so that might have changed the fueling.

it did happen to me when i first got the bike though, but it's since gone away.  at around 6000 miles now... i'm also running 5w-40 rotella though, maybe try a lighter weight oil and see if that helps at all?

All input appreciated! At least your experience indicates that cold starting doesn't have to be an issue on 796. Would hope to avoid going to the full ECU kit as I'm retired and my pockets are not as deep as they once were, nor do I need any more "go".  Passing traffic is pretty effortless. If you tell me that you also have more torque and at lower revs..., then I might need to have a word with Santa. Did you leave your db-killers in?

If you don't mind, ask your man at Trebor what he did when he set yours up, and also when he installed the kit. This one I presume? http://www.motovationusa.com/mvstore/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=791 How much additional noise from those slip-ons and air filter. I'm going deaf as is. (Not amusing.) Wear your earplugs! For too many years obviously I didn't.

Thanks Again!

[thought]

just the slip ons, not the full system... db killers out and the sound isn't deafening.  once you hear it with the db killers out, you wont want to put them back in.  i also ride with earplugs all the time though.

in terms of the diff btwn the ecu/air filter with and without, it makes a immediate difference in low end smoothness.  couldnt really tell for the top end, but the bike def felt better overall... sorta feels like how it should have felt from the factory.  and i cant really tell much from the butt dyno, but like i said, it's more the smoothness than power.

and also, i installed them myself... did that along with the caswell at the same time since i had to pull up the tank to get to the ecu/air filter.

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks "thought", Good news and bad news; all good info though.

Are we the only M796 owners here..., or are they just shy? 

Smoother yet would be good, but quite a ticket to get that. Your less restricted rig suggests to me also richer fueling. I know what you mean about the rumble but not sure if I could deal with no db-killers..., even if I can find my ski mask.  Had an NCR pipe on my Paso Limited for a while but had to ditch it. Positively mind-numbing sound after 1/2 hour. The reverse cone megaphone sound is the one I enjoy most if it isn't too loud, particularly on the over-run...

Was your installation totally plug-and-play? Not thinking of doing the Caswell yet as I have access to non-ethanol 93 and GT 260. Will freely admit that's a PITA though. The race gas is 30 miles and the non-ethanol is 70 miles, out near the Blue Ridge Parkway. 20 gallons in race cans lasts quite a while with Stabil and I can top up the bike there if I ride that direction.

No doubt you are aware that the Sunoco on Rt. 46 just down the hill and east of your dealer carries 260 GT? I used to pick mine up there on the way home from work. So convenient then; only a 3 mile detour off I-80.

[thought]

didnt know that about sunoco... but i live about 45 min away from trebour so that kind of kills that for me.  but thanks for the info

and yeah, it's def richer... duc's just come lean from the factory now for emissions.  even if you dont get the termi's i highly suggest getting some slip ons (arrow etc etc), reflashing the ecu to dp spec, and getting a k&n and cutting your airbox lid.  you save some cash going that route.

install is pretty much plug and play for the slip ons.  basically you slip off the old cans, slip on the new ones, remove the tank plastics, lift up the tank and then the ecu/air filter is right in front of you.  pop off the old ecu, pop on the new one, pop off old air filter cover/filter, pop on new one (dont forget to oil the filter before you do though, i did and had to pull everything back off in order to oil it), and you're done with the hard parts.  after you get it back together, all you need to do is cycle the ignition on and off 3 times (allow the full scrolling text to complete, then off and then on x3) to reset the TPS, set the speedometer settings back to the US settings (instructions can be found on the site or the workshop manual... removing the ecu resets it back to the stock EU settings aka KPH instead of MPH) and you're ready to ride.  if you dont want to spring for a 796 workshop manual, the pretty easy to dl 696 workshop manual works fine for those actions.  all the parts are the same between the two for those sections.

removing the headers for the full system will be a bit more annoying, but it's still within reason with hand tools.  i took a look at it as i was going to get the pipes ceramic coated but then found out that the flapper motor doesnt really let you do that unless you either a) get a 696 midpipe/duc.ee or b) just coat it anyway which will basically lock the flap in the open position and get a duc.ee

i'm in the process of selling my bike right now and i think i'll probably be taking the termi's off.  i'll post them up in the for sale section if i do, along with other random parts i have.  i'll send you a pm if i do

[Matiasneto]

i have a 796 and have not had any cold start issues. when i had the original exhaust i would turn the key and press the start button and it would fire right up. Now with the termis it does the same. the only think that is kind of strange is that sometimes it will shut off when cold as soon as i downshift to a light.

[Curmudgeon]

 
Thanks, "thought". I'd prefer right now to get a band-aid or workaround for this unless the DOW suddenly surges to 14,000.  Yesterday my dealer e-mailed all my observations along with his readouts to DNA Tech. Let's see what they say. They like him a lot, so you never know. No doubt it's the cold start strategy combined with something above since all systems and sensors check out 100%.

I've recorded the procedures you listed for future reference. I get the first part, but since I'm dull sometimes, could you be a little clearer or specific about resetting the TPS? I didn't follow "then off and then on x3". Seems like you're just repeating what you said prior. Sorry...

I did find Raux's market reset instructions which were also not crystal-clear but could probably dope it out by trial and error. If I screw something up though, my dealer is three ugly hours from here by trailer. If I did ultimately decide to do the DP kit, I'd probably have my dealer do it as he's very quick and careful and I doubt he'd hit me for more than an hour or so and he'd do it while I wait. Interestingly, so far he's had no other 796's pull this stunt. Go figure..., unless everybody is fitting the kit at delivery or the first service.

Actually I'm OK with the look of the 796 stock cans and shields because my bodywork is silver blue and it blends. The sound is not terrible for stock either, maybe slightly "tinny". I'd frankly be OK with the stainless 696 DP cans from the "looks" standpoint. Weight couldn't be vastly different than carbon either. I'd be OK with losing the flapper as it gets warm occasionally. (Had many BMWs with heated grips before but never a heated seat!  )

Do you think you'll really sell your bike up there going into winter? It'll be a LOT "hotter" in April as 796 supply seems to be pretty tight. PM me anyway if you do.

If DNA comes up with zip, I'll probably give Larry Ferracci a call and see what he suggests. My dealer and Eraldo are close from their racing days, so that doesn't hurt. Only had one EFi Ducati before and that was an early 851 with one of Larry's chips and cans. Eraldo set that up from scratch on delivery and it had zip issues for four years. I only sold it because I lost my death wish. 

Rubber side down!

[Curmudgeon]

i have a 796 and have not had any cold start issues. when i had the original exhaust i would turn the key and press the start button and it would fire right up. Now with the termis it does the same. the only think that is kind of strange is that sometimes it will shut off when cold as soon as i downshift to a light.

Thanks for chiming in. How many miles on the bike when you fitted the DP kit? I don't have your cutting out issue but M1100s did from research I've done. I have the opposite issue when hot if I downshift through all the gears down to first at a stop light. If I crack the throttle, it jumps like an accelerator pump x3. I can live with it but a newbie would dump the bike if that happened to them! Otherwise, mine fuels perfectly.

Read my first post please and tell me what you do/did differently from what I wrote. I'm analysing variables. Also, how many miles on your bike now?

Thanks!

[thought]

the 796 does surge a bit at lower revs... like when you're just toeing through traffic.  like what ash said in his review, i think it's just a 796 thing.  pretty sure getting a 14t sprocket in would get rid of it as you would just move past that rev range right away.

and for the tps reset, even if you did mess it up it would just run a bit rough till you fixed it, you wouldnt have to trailer it to the dealer you could ride it.  and really, it's pretty impossible to mess up.

just insert the key, and then turn it to starting position.  you'll see the lights turn on and the scrolling text go across your screen.  wait for that to finish.  and then turn the key to the off position.

repeat that process 3 times and you're done resetting your tps.  the old ecu's required you to go to the dealer and have them reset the tps, but the new monster ecu's do it themselves.

also, you're still pretty much in the break in period.  my bike got a lot smoother after 2k miles and just feels better and better once you get more miles on it.  it was around 4k miles that it just felt great all the time.

and for selling it... i'm going to pick up the sf848.  haha, i have a deposit down right now on it and i'm ok with trading it in but i would get a bit more selling it on my own (tax etc).  if i do trade it in the termi's would come off too so we'll see what happens

havent tried that hard to sell yet, only been posting it on forums... i hate dealing with people on craigslist and would prefer to sell to a member etc.  i figure after this month i'll toss it up on ebay/craigslist and see what happens.

[Curmudgeon]

Hello "thought",

No fueling issues like surging. It isn't an R1150 BMW.  Fitted the 14T before delivery after riding a 696 demo. Clearly it was geared for EC Type Approval, not the real world. Had done this with my 600 SL back in the day, even though that bike was "tuned". The issue Ash reported I do have and many with no "old school" riding habits might not even notice. It happens mainly in first gear when hot, downshifting through the gears to first while rolling up to a red light, etc. If you then so much as crack the throttle, the bike lurches as if you'd grabbed 1/2 throttle, like an accelerator pump x3. Got my attention the first time. Now I know!  Otherwise, no fueling glitches whatever. I think they mapped it that way in reaction to stalling on earlier Siemens bikes. I'd rather not have it, but I'm happy not to stall either...

I understood what you said above in the first part. Any time delay between turning the key off and then on, or time after the scrolling stops before shutting off? I didn't follow why you had said to do the three scrolling cycles twice. Did I miss something?

Actually I was more concerned about the market reset, going into the service menu and screwing up something in there!

Yes, mine's a lot smoother than it was when new already and I figured that it would get better up to ~ 2,000 miles. Smoother still and I wouldn't complain. It's still a little "gritty". Many of my Dellorto Ducatis were almost turbines. I jetted those, so maybe it's partially the lean tune on this one. If this bike spontaneously heals itself, I wouldn't gripe too much. This is my 33rd bike and 9th Ducati however, but the first which doesn't reliably start on the first crack. If the damn thing didn't have a sealed ECU, I'd just get a pal too cook a better cold start chip like the one in one of my cars.

When is the SF848 due? I just thought your timing wasn't ideal going into winter on a bike which will still be scarce in April. I understand the 7% tax scenario well. I sold expensive vehicles in NJ for 40+ years and have the scars to prove it.  If you go the eBay route, I'll send you some links to a few of my son's bike auctions. He writes his own HTML but should you follow his example, you still might get lucky. His success rate is pretty high. Timing though...

If DNA doesn't come up with a workaround for me shortly, I'm wondering whether there is a way to order the DP 796 ABS ECU but use the stainless cans they market much cheaper for the 696. I presume the air filter pieces DP offers in all those kits is the same? MUCH cheaper!

Thanks again!

[thought]

just turn it off after the scrolling ends... you might not even need to wait for the scrolling but i did it just in case.  and sorry if it was confusing, i meant to just do the on/off cycle 3 times.

changing the US/EU setting is a piece of cake too, it's explained well in the workshop manual which is generally what is repeated here.  once you get to the service menu you'll see how easy it is.  you can test it out right now if you have the instructions.

getting the ecu direct from ducati is like $900... they overcharge like crazy to make you pay for the whole kit instead.  if you're just interested in the ecu, you can always have it reflashed to dp spec for $250.  make sure you cut your air filter lid and get a k&n if you do reflash as i've heard that the new ecu settings are based more on the greater amt of air flowing in rather than the more open cans.  i know proitalia used to offer a free reflash when you buy a set of aftermarket cans from them, but i'm not sure if they still offer that.  try calling them and asking them about it.  also make sure they are flashing it to be a 796abs, not a normal 796.

btw, the termi's btwn the 696/796/1100 are interchangeable along with the air filters/lids.  it's only the ecu that is different.  so if you find a used set, all you would need to do is get a ecu reflashed.

and yeah, my timing sucks... haha.  i know this is the worst route to go, but well... the sf848 is just too much of exactly what i want out of a bike.  the only thing it would need is abs and it would be perfect.

and i'll def send you a pm if i do go the ebay route