Donington, UK ( Spoiler )

[derby]

maybe that somebody is still waiting for you to watch stoner's 125gp, 250gp, and 2006 motogp seasons.

[SP3]

maybe it's just semantics, but "something in the setup" and "something in the electronics" both read differently to me.

to me, "setup" refers to the mechanical aspects (suspension, geometry, gearing, etc) of the bike.

"electronics" means something entirely different (again, to me).

Why are we STILL yammering on about this. The bike as a whole is what the rider wins or loses on not just the electronics and the rider still has to "get on with it". Yep, he said they made some improvements with the electronics but that is still only one part of the system (bike). It is no different that the parts you just mentioned. Every part that makes up the bike is constantly evolving. If it was an electronic issue that was holding him back previously and Ducati found an improved setting GOOD. That is the task at hand, make everything BETTER. Do you think that Yamaha did NOT improve its own electronics over last year? Their bike is vastly improved from the previous season. Did that happen only by "mechanical aspects"?


I am absolutely postive that if Rossi had put pen to paper with Ducati when he had the chance and said the same thing as Stoner there would be dead silence from the fan boys. Had Rossi won all the races Stoner did last season by the same margins we would not be hearing all the whinging about how "boring" the race was or "he only won because Ducati has the best TC" bullcrap that has been piling up for over a year now.

maybe that somebody is still waiting for you to watch stoner's 125gp, 250gp, and 2006 motogp seasons.

What of them? They have no bearing on THIS season.

[derby]

Why are we STILL yammering on about this.

we aren't... sqweak likes to bring it up just to stir the shit.

What of them? They have no bearing on THIS season.

i'm too lazy to search for the whole thread that got started in, but it does have relevance regarding peoples' opinions of stoner given his past performance.

[derby]

I am absolutely postive that if Rossi had put pen to paper with Ducati when he had the chance and said the same thing as Stoner there would be dead silence from the fan boys. Had Rossi won all the races Stoner did last season by the same margins we would not be hearing all the whinging about how "boring" the race was or "he only won because Ducati has the best TC" bullcrap that has been piling up for over a year now.

that's not really apples to apples, is it? rossi has how many world championships on how many different bikes? and again, what were stoner's accomplishments prior to being 3rd choice for the gp7?

[sqweak]

I haven't watched Stoner's 125 and 250 years.  Why? It's not what he's doing today, or did last year.  I watched him in 2006.  He crashed a lot.  What's your point here derby? That you refuse to give him any respect today because he wasn't class champ in 125 or 250 or his rookie GP year?  That despite being the 1 out of 7 guys to ride the D16RR to a championship, that it's still somehow the bike's magic powers that lead to it's success.

Forget every conversation we've ever had except for 2 rounds ago at catalunya and this round at donnigton:

Then: Pedro runs away with Catalunya.
Me: Gee, it sucks that people praise pedro when he wins like this and rip on stoner for doing it last year
Derby: OMG That's so not the same thing!!! Tires! Top Speed! Last year was different!

Now: Stoner runs away with Catalunya.
Me: Gee, it sucks that people praise pedro when he won like this and rip on stoner when he does it today
Derby: OMG That's so not the same thing!!! Setup! Electronics!  2 rounds ago was different!



I continue to stir the shit with you Derby because I want you to get off your high horse and respect that the kid can race.  I waited all year for you last year while you went down a list of caveats and conditions to his success, and you're doing it again this year.  You're hard headed and so am I, so I'm sure it'll continue this way.

[derby]

I continue to stir the shit with you Derby because I want you to get off your high horse and respect that the kid can race.  I waited all year for you last year while you went down a list of caveats and conditions to his success, and you're doing it again this year.  You're hard headed and so am I, so I'm sure it'll continue this way.

am i? seems more like you're trying to bait me and not getting the reaction you're hoping for.

look, the kid can ride, but he had jack shit for competition last year. that, coupled with the fact that his entire prior gp racing career has been one big suck, means he's gonna have to prove to me that his championship wasn't a fluke.

[Jester]

Oh snap! 

[sqweak]

am i? seems more like you're trying to bait me and not getting the reaction you're hoping for.

Really? So I imagined earlier in this thread and in the catalunya thread when you made excuses for the reason his and dani's similar performances couldn't be compared? Or any other caveat you've placed on his performance this year?

look, the kid can ride, but he had jack shit for competition last year.

Awesome, some acknowledgment finally.

yes, yes. we know.

that, coupled with the fact that his entire prior gp racing career has been one big suck

Wow, I wasn't aware that an individual's entire worth and current performance was based on their prior performance.  You must be a really shitty boss to work for, investor, and/or fan of anyone that's ever improved over time or recovered from a slump.  Guess the Red Sox and Patriots are shit teams cause of those 20 or so years before their current good times, huh? And how bout those Apple computers?

One big suck?  Which part, the 19 Wins/40 Podiums over 101 starts (18.8%/39.6%)? Or the 12th(250), 8th(125), 5th, 2nd(250), 8th(GP Debut), and 1st season finishes?  Seems like a pretty decent career to me.

means he's gonna have to prove to me that his championship wasn't a fluke.

My issue isn't with you accepting his championship, because you never will.  I just want to see you drop the excuses, conditions, and caveats and give him some due respect.

[derby]

Really? So I imagined earlier in this thread and in the catalunya thread when you made excuses for the reason his and dani's similar performances couldn't be compared? Or any other caveat you've placed on his performance this year?

what caveats have i placed on his performance this year?

Awesome, some acknowledgment finally.

yes, yes. we know.

wait, are you finally admitting that he had NO competition last year?

Wow, I wasn't aware that an individual's entire worth and current performance was based on their prior performance.  You must be a really shitty boss to work for, investor, and/or fan of anyone that's ever improved over time or recovered from a slump.  Guess the Red Sox and Patriots are shit teams cause of those 20 or so years before their current good times, huh? And how bout those Apple computers?

sorry, mang... citing decades of poor performance for sports teams really misses the point. we're talking about an individual's measured (lack of) performance vs a miracle season where nobody else showed up to play.

furthermore, i didn't say his entire worth or current performance was BASED on prior performance. i said that it sets expectations for future performance.

you can't honestly not see how a championship he was virtually gifted would be suspect given his past "crash and blame your team of sabotage" behavior and the fact that neither michelin, yamaha, or honda showed up with a package dependable enough to do the business.

then again, if ducati really had "world champion" faith in stoner for '07, they would've been paying him "bayliss money" and he wouldn't have been their 3rd choice for that ride (behind hayden and melandri), don'tcha think?

One big suck?  Which part, the 19 Wins/40 Podiums over 101 starts (18.8%/39.6%)? Or the 12th(250), 8th(125), 5th, 2nd(250), 8th(GP Debut), and 1st season finishes?  Seems like a pretty decent career to me.

i guess that depends on who you're comparing him to.

My issue isn't with you accepting his championship, because you never will.  I just want to see you drop the excuses, conditions, and caveats and give him some due respect.

you like picking this nit. the fact is i've pretty much kept my mouth regarding his performance this season.

[sqweak]

what caveats have i placed on his performance this year?

Off the top of my head?  Here's one to start: when he has a bad week, he's a shit rider, when it's a good week, it's all magnetti/bike/tires.

wait, are you finally admitting that he had NO competition last year?

Let's review your statements from last year, leading up to your magic bullet of the tire struggles.

Stoner only wins because Ducati gambled on performance over fuel economy. Just you wait until everyone else catches up.
Stoner only wins because Ducati has top speed advantage.  Just you wait until it's on a twisty track.
Stoner can't battle.  Just you wait until he has to fight for position.
OMG, Michelin is such an underdog.  Poor Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, etc.

Our difference in opinion is this, you somehow have it stuck in your head that Ducati/Stoner/Bridgestone had a magic advantage that was unavailable to any other team.  You feel this should invalidate the entire season and question Stoner's ability and championship.  They make the beast with two backsed up, Ducati/Bridgestone didn't, and Stoner evolved as a rider consistently answering your criticisms one after another.  He stopped crashing.  He rode conservatively and got the points when he didn't get the win.  He kicked up his game on the technical tracks you were certain he'd fail at, and had damn entertaining battles with riders (including Rossi) you were positive would smoke him in a head to head battle.

I've long admitted that there were issues for other teams/tires/etc last year, it's just that I don't wipe the entire season and dismiss Stoner's accomplishments because of it.

furthermore, i didn't say his entire worth or current performance was BASED on prior performance. i said that it sets expectations for future performance.

you can't honestly not see how a championship he was virtually gifted would be suspect given his past "crash and blame your team of sabotage" behavior and the fact that neither michelin, yamaha, or honda showed up with a package dependable enough to do the business.

He made that claim once, in a 7 year racing career, and in spite of those crashes would go on to finish his debut season in a very respectable 8th

Again, nothing stopped michelin, yamaha, or honda from having the package.

then again, if ducati really had "world champion" faith in stoner for '07, they would've been paying him "bayliss money" and he wouldn't have been their 3rd choice for that ride (behind hayden and melandri), don'tcha think?

Never have I said that his performance was not an unexpected suprise given his debut season.  Ducati had to make that choice without the advantage of seeing his performance throughout the year.  You chose to ignore that performance and continue discounting him.  That's the difference.

i guess that depends on who you're comparing him to.

How bout Nicky, Hopper, Melandri, Ant West, De Puniet, etc etc etc.  Is he Rossi? no.  Does he have Dani's pedigree and record? no.  Can he run with them? Seems so.

[COWBOY]

Tired argument by the usual suspects.

Rossi wins (on the strongest package in GP this year) = GOAT
Stoner wins (on a bucking bronco of a bike noone else can ride) = He's along for the ride.
 


Let the



begin.

As far as the season goes Stoner's only lost 2 races he won last year and both of those were mechanical issues.  The bulk of the races he won (and won going away) are still in front of him.  I wouldn't go putting the crown back on Rossi just yet.

I actually hope that both bikes get sorted fully so the two can race with the best they have to offer and put this to bed.  No excuses and no BS, the winner is the winner.  Every great champion has a foil -- Nicklaus/Palmer, McEnroe/Borg, Sampras/Agassi, Bird/Magic, Ali/Frasier -- that pushes them to  a level they otherwise wouldn't reach for.  Rossi's never been seriously pushed by another champion with a comparable package.  I'd love to see it and would love to see him rise to the occasion.  For all we know his best is still to come.

[FatguyRacer]

halfway through the season and he's only won two... 

Same as Nicky in 2006.

Just sayin....

[derby]

Off the top of my head?  Here's one to start: when he has a bad week, he's a shit rider, when it's a good week, it's all magnetti/bike/tires.

as i said previous, i've pretty much kept my mouth shut on stoner this year. fwiw, he's only had two "good" weeks. you asked why i wasn't humping his leg and i pointed that (i found it somewhat amusing) he had just been interviewed and attributed it to "an electronic breakthrough".

Let's review your statements from last year, leading up to your magic bullet of the tire struggles.

Stoner only wins because Ducati gambled on performance over fuel economy. Just you wait until everyone else catches up.

i never said this. in fact, i pointed out that honda was impressed they were able to get that much performance out of the bike given the reduction in fuel tank size and still make the end of the race.

Stoner only wins because Ducati has top speed advantage.  Just you wait until it's on a twisty track.

they didn't?

Stoner can't battle.  Just you wait until he has to fight for position.

who did he have to fight last year?

OMG, Michelin is such an underdog.  Poor Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, etc.

who else brought a package capable of winning the championship? that's right, nobody.

Our difference in opinion is this, you somehow have it stuck in your head that Ducati/Stoner/Bridgestone had a magic advantage that was unavailable to any other team.  You feel this should invalidate the entire season and question Stoner's ability and championship.   They make the beast with two backsed up, Ducati/Bridgestone didn't,

good, so you admit he had no competition last year... 

and Stoner evolved as a rider consistently answering your criticisms one after another.  He stopped crashing.  He rode conservatively and got the points when he didn't get the win.  He kicked up his game on the technical tracks you were certain he'd fail at, and had damn entertaining battles with riders (including Rossi) you were positive would smoke him in a head to head battle.

i believe my statement was "rossi on equal equipment would beat stoner."

I've long admitted that there were issues for other teams/tires/etc last year, it's just that I don't wipe the entire season and dismiss Stoner's accomplishments because of it.

have you?

He made that claim once, in a 7 year racing career, and in spite of those crashes would go on to finish his debut season in a very respectable 8th

ok 

Again, nothing stopped michelin, yamaha, or honda from having the package.

look, everybody's issues from last year are well documented. michelin sucked for the majority of last year. sucked so bad that rossi demanded to be switched to bridgestone for '08. honda COMPLETELY (and admittedly) missed the boat with the design of the rc212. yamaha had reliability issues.

how come you don't mention kawasaki or suzuki? that's right, because they were no competition.

Never have I said that his performance was not an unexpected suprise given his debut season.  Ducati had to make that choice without the advantage of seeing his performance throughout the year.  You chose to ignore that performance and continue discounting him.  That's the difference.

hey, he's world champion... "yay stoner"... it would've been nice if it wasn't handed to him by failing competition.

look, go back and review my statements on TOB regarding THIS SEASON and you'll see i've pretty much avoided discussing the specifics of casey's competitiveness.

[derby]

Same as Nicky in 2006.

Just sayin....

i was actually referring to daryl's statement that he'd only win 4 races this year.

[derby]

Tired argument by the usual suspects.

yeah, i can't believe i got sucked into this damn thing again.