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Author Topic: building an exhaust.. any guru advice or tips?  (Read 38386 times)
Roaduser
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« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2012, 09:28:38 PM »

looking at this in a little more depth,
*i think its fair to say that once tuned, the 1000ml split headers would produce the highest top end power
*all sizes of split headers have a chance to produce more midrange power
*all sizes of split headers will probably lose bottom end torque unless i can pull it back with timing etc
*my clutch is starting to slip
*the front cylinder runs leaner
*with the 600 ml header comparison, the front cylinder was tested first and the rear second, so its possible that higher header temps could have had an influence on this.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:48:39 PM by Roaduser » Logged
MonsterHPD
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« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2012, 12:25:02 PM »

Very interesting.

I´ve been digging in my files and dyno runs, unfortunately I´ve not been as thorough with making notes as I should.
I will post some dyno runs and pictures here, even though they´ve been on the forum in other threads already; I think they are relevant here so bear with me.

Concerning split headers, your claim that split headers will produce less bottom end torque seems valid (i.e., on a general level).

The link below will take you to a race team running (at the time) an 800, and dyno runs from an (unknown) 2-1 system, and a split-header (i.e., 2-2) system with megaphones: The 2-1 system is clearly better at low revs.
While you´re at it, take a look at the rest of their storys also, quite interesting.

http://beta-evo-db1.blogspot.se/p/2010-beta-evo-mk2-specs.html


My own experiments with various-length open headers, and then the full 2-1 system, shows the same trend:



I have no real idea why the full system was also better on top end, but so it seems to be. Certainly room for more investigations here.

The next graph shows comparison between my 2-1, and stock with slip-on:



It´s not a direct comparison, since the 2-1 graph also shows the effects of an open air-box lid and PCIII.
They don´t start at the same RPM either, but at least it seems likely that they would be much the same below 3000 RPM or so. If the difference after that is down to exhaust or to airbox+PCIII, I don´t know but at least the 2-1 is not worse that the stock X-junction. I think.

Last, a comparison between my Monster 2-1, and the rain-bike 2-1:



The systems look quite different:

Monster 2-1:



Rain bike 2-1:



In spite of the systems beeing quite different in layout, they give pretty similiar results, maybe the better result on the rain bike at lower revs is due to the 2 headers ending close to each other in the Y junction.

Having looked into my "Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust systems", I have a theory concerning the difference in low-end torque between 2-1 and 2-2 (please note: a theory, I don´t know).

The 2-1 system uses "independent" headers designed to be long enough to work without influencing the other, and returning a negative-pressure pulse to the exhaust valve during overlap.

On many 4-or 6-cylinder engines, Y-shaped headers connecting cylinders with even firing intervals are used; these systems are called "Interference headers". They often give better low-end torque since the "dead" branch of the Y acts as a resonator, increasing the amplitude of the pressure pulses and thus increasing the vacuum on the still-open exhaust valve at valve overlap.
This works well enough to have some people put a "dead" pipe on headers without a cylinder to connect to, just to get the resonator effect. Hard to incorporate on a bike without styling impact, though ...

Some of you might also remember the Y-type exhaust systems sold by  Dunstall for Hondas, Nortons etc. in the 70´s. Worket great at the time, at least. They were designed by the late and great Gordon Blair at some university in GB. 

My theory is that the non-working header in a 2-1 system work as such a resonator, working only at very low revs since it is so long.

In my case, I will be using the megaphones for a track bike, so a little loss below 4000 or so RPM is OK if I gain something at higher revs. For a commuter bike, this might not be so.

It will be very interesting to see if there is any change if you change timing etc., and also to hear your riding impressions.        

 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 01:01:11 PM by MonsterHPD » Logged

Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.
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« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2012, 03:24:56 AM »

i don't think there'd be enough in the tuning to make the short headers of any length better as such.  but i'd say they'd not be much worse, if any.  maybe under 4,500 rpm.

i think tuned right it'd be pretty good with any of the headers, although it's funny the long ones get hurt b/w 5,5 and 7.

how long or what volume are the std headers up to the stamped cross?
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« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2012, 04:00:46 AM »

The stock system for the M800 mesures as follows:
Front header: 550 mm from flange to "stop" in the X stamping;
Rear header: 470 mm.

Measured very quickly with the hose-in-the-tube method, so maybe 10 mm tolerance either way. In any case, the rear header is markedly shorter.

On a very general level, the 1000 header (i.e., 1000 mm?) is better at low revs (<5000 rpm) and worse at higher revs, which is probably what could be expected. Not much of a difference between any of the configurations > 8000 rpm, though.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 04:08:24 AM by MonsterHPD » Logged

Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.
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« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2012, 11:52:28 PM »

well the hose method says i need to trim off 5 cm, but by liquid volume i need to trim off 14cm. so the question is are "equal" headers better to be the same length or volume?? i can only assume that even tho they are mandrel bends they are still slightly resreicted and over the length of the header this is making a difference.

im leaning towards volume right now as that will give me a better looking system!  waytogo
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« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2012, 01:09:58 PM »

Well,
you have your dyno curves and know what you get so no need to worry about that, I think waytogo

I will also make a hose vs. volume test as soon as I have a loose header and some resonably accurate measuring glass os similiar, can´t see why there should be such a difference ....- Huh? 
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.
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« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2012, 03:56:10 AM »

   popcorn
Lovin' this thread.
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« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2012, 07:04:45 PM »

hey monsterhpd, i finally got some time to read your above post properly!! it is interesting how clearly and how much more midrange torque that you got with the split headers, no small cookies there. Yet the loss your showing on the top end isnt small cookies either. Did u happen to log the AFR, maybe the fueling was way off on the top end? When did you do these dyno runs, was this in response to my tests or had you done this long ago? and were they back to back runs on the same day?

with your second graph, it is a pity thats combined with the pcIII but that is another great improvement to the midrange torque! your 900s are proving to be torque monsters!

on your last graph, that looks to be ahell of a flat spot at 6-7k. that isnt shown on any of your other runs, whats going on there?

http://www.accessnorton.com/pictures-dunstall-exhaust-t8494-15.html some pictures of the dunstall exhaust you were talking about, for reference to future readers.

im too far in to pull out for any reason now. so we will know soon enough if the split system, properly tuned, will result in a significant enough low end loss to effect commuting. i can always make another or revert back to the remus system if all turns sour (SHUDDERS!!!) ill attach some upto date pics of mine below in a moment.
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« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2012, 07:56:55 PM »

straight and long


straight and shorter


angle to match rear can


agressive angle


slight kick up and walk around








and that is what i ended up going with. the bottom of the can is level to the header so it shows a slight kick up. i didnt take a rear shot of the final but it is tucked in a bit more than the earlier trial shots. i ended up using a second exhaust seal ring thing in the front cylinder to give me a coupla mms extra needed to tuck it under the rear sets and have the header run true to the bike.



maybe one day ill bother to walk back upstairs and get a decent camera...   Grin
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« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2012, 10:41:34 PM »

 applause
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krista
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« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2012, 11:59:31 PM »

Nice thread!

I have 2 thoughts (having only read this last page):
1) I'm still impressed by the foul looking X collector from 90's dual sided swingarm Ducatis. With MBP heads, Pongo made 104hp using the standard m900 header and 2" diameter mufflers.

2) any work done on previous generation 2V pantah heads with bent intake ports is wasted effort. Get a 796 engine & watch real results happen.  All the old motors are handicapped by that intake port. Sad

Oh, and 3: I have a set of MBP heads for 800 / s2r 800 that were intended for my bike sitting on the shelf. it'd be nice to sell them to help fund the projects we have in the works. Real projects, not me wasting time & $ on my bike that I don't ride enough. Tongue

Yaay,
Chris
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Krista Kelley ... autist formerly known as chris
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Roaduser
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« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2012, 12:42:04 AM »

Nice thread!

I have 2 thoughts (having only read this last page):
1) I'm still impressed by the foul looking X collector from 90's dual sided swingarm Ducatis. With MBP heads, Pongo made 104hp using the standard m900 header and 2" diameter mufflers.

2) any work done on previous generation 2V pantah heads with bent intake ports is wasted effort. Get a 796 engine & watch real results happen.  All the old motors are handicapped by that intake port. Sad

Oh, and 3: I have a set of MBP heads for 800 / s2r 800 that were intended for my bike sitting on the shelf. it'd be nice to sell them to help fund the projects we have in the works. Real projects, not me wasting time & $ on my bike that I don't ride enough. Tongue

Yaay,
Chris

if your reference to pantah heads was with concern to my bike, they arent pantah heads. they are the original m800 heads from the bike, so practically the same heads as the 796. i was just mucking around with some raw pantah belt covers i had sitting around. im looking at polishing them and a spare clutch cover i have just for something a little different to what everyone else is doing to the late model monsters.

what are MBP heads?
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« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2012, 12:46:11 AM »

Yeah same heads as on my s2r 800 with pantah style bent intake ports.  100ds, 1100, 696, 796 are different casting and actually flow...

Yeah 796 is same bore & stroke but not the same engine...
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« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2012, 01:09:31 AM »

if your reference to pantah heads was with concern to my bike, they arent pantah heads. they are the original m800 heads from the bike, so practically the same heads as the 796. i was just mucking around with some raw pantah belt covers i had sitting around. im looking at polishing them and a spare clutch cover i have just for something a little different to what everyone else is doing to the late model monsters.

what are MBP heads?
pretty sure the 800 heads are similar to the 695. the bump from 695 to 696 in power comes from the new head configuration.
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Roaduser
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« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2012, 02:46:58 AM »

ahhh well there you go, i didn't know that. are the barrels the same, are the heads a bolt on?

from the sites i have checked so far, people are listing the 696 as about 5hp up, but torque as the same or slightly less than the 800. so from the impression I'm getting here, they may be similar in oem form but once tickled the later motor will go in leaps and bounds compared to the 800??. looking at the site for MBP it sounds good, but i guess expensive compared to just getting a 1000ds to start with! how much would u want for the heads u have Chris, just outa interest....  Evil

I'm not really after more power, quite happy with what i have tbh, I'm just tinkering for tinkerings sake. basically because i got sick of tinkering with the car and getting nowhere so i started on the bike. ill get to that point on this bike soon too and move on. i have an xs650 sitting there begging to be played with and a nice old muscle car in the parents garage beggin to commandeered.
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