monster for a returning rider

[Curmudgeon]

Quote from: Raux on Today at 11:18:20 AM
the new monster will and does handle better

I won't argue with this but will counter by saying ... they handle differently - not necessarily better.

We ride differently and have different experiences and conditioning. The geometry and handling of one bike may be 'better' but it just may never feel 'right' for someone else.

Try one. I'm pretty sure they're flat better because new Monsters aren't parts bin bikes. My 796 is more nimble and more planted than my 851 was. Possibly the 4V higher center of gravity plays into that. My 796 feels more like my tuned 600 SL..., only FAR less likely to dump you if you screw up.  And THAT was what I was really after in the first place...

[Raux]

Duchess--- sorry wasn't meant for you. Your experience with the evo certainly isn't reflective of the new bike so I was ticked that someone would use it as a slam against the new monster. The S4R does sound like a great bike and certainly sounds like someone put a good deal of time and money into it, If you can get it for a good price, enjoy their efforts for sure. Cost wise, you're right, the evo will take some money to get to the same level of detail the S4R already has.

[El-Twin]

Duchess - I recently went through the same process you're going through now. Regarding the general roughness of the EVO vs the smoothness and reviness of the Street Triple, this thread has a lot of related info:

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54877.0

The first time I rode the EVO I didn't like it either. I stalled it, the power delivery scared me, and I was generally uncomfortable with it's cranky manners. I complained to the dealer about the lean fueling and the tall gearing, and decided that maybe I was barking up the wrong tree.

Then I rode the Street Triple for comparison, and thought I might be in love, so I started the thread referenced above.

So I went back for a second round on the EVO and, in the end, I had to go with my heart, which was the big Duc.

Just know one thing... The EVO handles superbly in the valleys and canyons. What you describe is not normal, and I would go back to the dealer and try a different machine, or have them make sure the demo is set-up right. You will see it in a better new light.

But that S4R sounds like the find of a lifetime, so there's that. Of course, it should really be compared to the Streetfighter, and the new 848 is just about to hit the showrooms.   

[Betty]

Quote from: Raux on Today at 11:18:20 AM
the new monster will and does handle better

Try one. I'm pretty sure they're flat better because new Monsters aren't parts bin bikes. My 796 is more nimble and more planted than my 851 was. Possibly the 4V higher center of gravity plays into that. My 796 feels more like my tuned 600 SL..., only FAR less likely to dump you if you screw up.  And THAT was what I was really after in the first place...

I know they are not quite the same but I spent a couple of days on the 1100 when it first came out a few years ago ... and just didn't like the way it 'felt'. The Boss rode the 696 at the same time and she had the same complaints. Of course the 'weird feeling' that we felt was probably only 'better' handling but our conditioning led us to not 'fall in love'. Interestingly I had a short ride on the Streetfighter at the same time ... and to ME it 'felt' much closer to perfect from the beginning.

Like I said before I was not intending to start a new vs old argument ... it was just an opportunity too good to pass up. You guys provided so much info to the Duchess to convince her that I hope you can see the irony in her falling for a different bike.

[Curmudgeon]

Hello Betty (? ),

Irony? After 40 years in high-line car sales, nothing surprises me. You can only ask what the "mission" might be and recommend accordingly. If the clients don't take the advice and order something totally unsuitable, after the first few years I just learned to take the $$$.  Some would return for the right toy later, remembering what I'd advised. Some would just buy something totally different and blame the product rather than their decision. Such is life..., and now VERY glad I'm retired.

From what you are saying I presume you are "conditioned" to a higher center of gravity and are less comfortable with a "fighter plane". The 4V has definitely a lot more weight higher up as does the SF with more "dirt bike" riding position and I presume a longer bar with more leverage. If you read the intro threads, there's a rider who just sold his S2R1K and commented how much smoother and more nimble his new 796 feels.

So sure, I understand "feel" and you have to go with what feels right to you. Did you grow up on Jap multis? THEY have a high center of gravity and having grown up mostly on Ducatis and BMWs, I could never get on with them.

The 4V lacks some character but I agree is addictive. What I found confounding was the OP's comment that the EVO wouldn't steer while the S4R would! Something NOT right there. Even Ash's reviews of the new Monsters note the sensitive steering. It isn't nervous though or I'd be no fan either. VERY hard to knock the new ones off line, even on bad bridge transitions and the like. As "thought" said when he traded his 796 for an SF...,  http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55287.msg1027711;topicseen#msg1027711

[Betty]

Did you grow up on Jap multis?

Nope, never even ridden one. Although nothing like your experience, I have ridden a range of (mostly small capacity) bikes and scooters but only ever 'owned' my Ducatis. Oh and I probably still have a lot of growing up to do.

Just remembering our experience on the new-gen Monsters ... it was not the front end (steering?) that we had a problem with - it was the rear. The older Monsters have a greater rear-weight bias in comparison and neither of us liked that light rear end feeling - to the extent the Boss got off thinking the rear tyres were no good. It just didn't feel right to us.

Interestingly the experienced Superbike riders we spoke to at the time said they much preferred the new-gen Monsters as they 'felt' more like the Superbikes they were used to.

Technically your recommendations may be spot on but perception and confidence are more important for the individual. Perhaps the Evo Duchess tried was setup wrong or that the S4R had been 'tweaked' (perhaps accidentally) but perfectly for the way she likes to ride ... regardless, that initial 'felt' wrong or 'felt' right perception may ultimately prevail. If it gives her the confidence to state it is the perfect bike for her then we need to acknowledge that only she knows what 'feels' right for her and wish her good luck and happy motoring.

You can only ask what the "mission" might be and recommend accordingly. If the clients don't take the advice and order something totally unsuitable, after the first few years I just learned to take the $$$.  Some would return for the right toy later, remembering what I'd advised. Some would just buy something totally different and blame the product rather than their decision.

I don't think that is the case here.

The 4V lacks some character but I agree is addictive. What I found confounding was the OP's comment that the EVO wouldn't steer while the S4R would! Something NOT right there. Even Ash's reviews of the new Monsters note the sensitive steering. It isn't nervous though or I'd be no fan either. VERY hard to knock the new ones off line, even on bad bridge transitions and the like.

OK now I am a little confused. I won't disagree that the EVO may not be setup right (who knows?). But correct me if I'm wrong ... you are trying to state a case for how well the new-gen Monsters steer but say they are 'VERY hard to knock off line' - is that not the basic premise of counter-steering? Perhaps this is the way Duchess has interpreted her experience.

[Curmudgeon]

Betty,

Doesn't get knocked off line = holds the line while leaned over and hitting a rude BIG bump or transition = pretty damn good manners.  Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, Duchess came here asking for input and gave her riding background and experience, so..., I do believe the "case" is similar. http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0

That's a good point you make about the weight bias on the older bikes although the geometry on paper is similar. I'm aware they're more wheelie-prone. Others can correct me but I believe they were built up from the parts bin onto an 851 frame. Not sure what Ducati were trying to do there. The 851 (or at least mine) had a fairly planted front end. It DID have a higher center of gravity than a Pantah, so I never did push mine as hard..., but the damn thing was FAST.  Finally sold it before the tree with my name on it could claim me!

Did you ever ride dirt bikes? Generally you want the front end to bite and have a secure rear which can slide controlably if things get ugly. A front end which pushes is scary. My skill level was never so great that I felt I could control that! Had a Paso Limited which never did, but had a reputation for pushing. That 16" wheel was GP practice for a few years, but as you say, never "felt" right. To repeat, losing the front end is generally terminal.  :'(

Good for you that you've not grown up! Body parts falling off all over the place here but once I'm settled on the bike, still ride more or less as if I were 40..., or at least my 34-year-old son claims I do on the 796. Not so much on the T-100 though. 

Where in OZ? Good riding weather still down there? Freezing nights just departing here with a WARM weekend in store!

[xsephirot]

Betty,

Doesn't get knocked off line = holds the line while leaned over and hitting a rude BIG bump or transition = pretty damn good manners.  Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, Duchess came here asking for input and gave her riding background and experience, so..., I do believe the "case" is similar. http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0

That's a good point you make about the weight bias on the older bikes although the geometry on paper is similar. I'm aware they're more wheelie-prone. Others can correct me but I believe they were built up from the parts bin onto an 851 frame. Not sure what Ducati were trying to do there. The 851 (or at least mine) had a fairly planted front end. It DID have a higher center of gravity than a Pantah, so I never did push mine as hard..., but the damn thing was FAST.  Finally sold it before the tree with my name on it could claim me!

Did you ever ride dirt bikes? Generally you want the front end to bite and have a secure rear which can slide controlably if things get ugly. A front end which pushes is scary. My skill level was never so great that I felt I could control that! Had a Paso Limited which never did, but had a reputation for pushing. That 16" wheel was GP practice for a few years, but as you say, never "felt" right. To repeat, losing the front end is generally terminal.  :'(

Good for you that you've not grown up! Body parts falling off all over the place here but once I'm settled on the bike, still ride more or less as if I were 40..., or at least my 34-year-old son claims I do on the 796. Not so much on the T-100 though. 

Where in OZ? Good riding weather still down there? Freezing nights just departing here with a WARM weekend in store!

If you're pushing anywhere near that hard on the streets then you need to take it to the track. I seriously doubt duchess and 95% of this forum pushes that hard. And even then the evo or any monster for that matter wouldn't be the ideal track rat.

[Duchess]

Ok here are more details on my lovely S4R.


Q) Ask the owner what tweaks are on the bike – what did he do above Stock ?  From what I researched on line, the S4R came with a lot of the carbon, but you said it had a full Sil Moto Carbon exhaust. What else – air filter and ECU to match the Exhaust ?  Other tweaks and changes ?

A) carbon on radiator, chain guard, chain, clutch slave cyl. Fast by Ferraci air box mod, stock ecu with  powercommander, Sil Moto full system, CRG levers, carbon Accusato quick release gas cap, coated tank to prevent rust from fuel contaminants.


Q2)      Detail what was done to prep the bike for sale – I think you said new fluids, new belts, new tires … could you confirm the work done

A) The bike had all fluids flushed, new tires mounted, new timing belts, new battery etc. Basically a full service for a bike that sat for that period of time.

Q3) When the oil was changed, was it possible to remove oil drain plug and oil filter without removing the exhaust (I read that there may be an issue with the Sil Moto full system running too close to the oil drain plug)

A) No, the exhaust has to be removed to perform this service.

Q4)     What recalls have there been for the ‘04 S4R and have they applied to this particular bike

There are no outstanding recalls or campaigns on this bike

So i have yet to ask the question on rocker, gauges and immobilizers but all seems well so far. 

Maybe it's not perfect, but for 50% of what a modded evo would cost me it's looking pretty good.

[muskrat]

Very thorough Dutchess. 
Good luck with your decision.  Choose what inspires you and remember everyone here has a favorite so take some comments, process and decide for yourself. 

[Duchess]

To talk about my impression of the handling...

I was test riding all these bikes on River Road which has gentle bends and curves, plus up a few roads at right angles to River Road that climbed up the valley sides. So tight curves and steep climbs.

The evo was very planted. It wanted to go straight ahead and the amount of effort required to make it lean through the bends surprised me. Not that it wouldn't or didn't , it just took effort.

Up the steep and twisty valley sides I was taking it slow and steering with the bars not by body lean, and here again it took more effort.

The S4R by contrast responded to exactly the level of effort I gave it and went exactly where I told it to go.

Maybe the Evo is "good handling" and shows it will not easily be knocked off course and it is I as rider that needs to adapt.

Maybe I'm conditioned by bikes from the 80's and the S4R just feels more natural, the way listening to vinyl played through speakers sounds more natural to me than mp3s played through earplugs. You can argue all you like about theoretical sound purity but I still will like my vinyl and NAC135 mono block power amps.

Maybe the ease of being able to control what the engine was doing was a factor. As I was fighting the evos engine, I wasn't able to use engine power to control the curves. As I was able to relax and use the S4Rs engine, that fed into the handling equation also.

So far no one has told me that the S4R is a death trap. In fact you say it has LESS power than the EVO and that the EVO is overpowered for my needs. So that makes the S4R better by your own logic.

I'm still at the point of 'this is going to cost me about the same as I would pay for a well spec'd 09 696, and less than half what I would pay for a similarly spec'd 2012 EVO'.

And I like it better.

And it's pretty.

Maybe I'll buy this one AND a Honda 4 cyl for when it rains AND a scooter for commuting into town And still have money left over. Now there's a thought.

Duchess.

[Curmudgeon]

So I have yet to ask the question on rocker, gauges and immobilizers but all seems well so far.

Was really hoping that the experts here would chime in on this stuff but it seems you'll need to use the search function instead. Mostly it's all here but you'll have to dig for it.

This "effort" you describe to get the EVO to turn is NOT normal. "L-Twin" confirms above. My 796 has the same frame and you'll find plenty of other impressions from other multiple Ducati owners recently. When you want to turn MY bike, you need only "think" in that direction, and that's where it goes. (Tiny countersteering input no doubt but almost unconscious.) That's what "Raux" was also telling you.

As for resisting being deflected, that's just a good chassis. Nothing to do with steering. If anything, it's very close to the bicycle-like flicking that I used to be able to do with my 1981 Pantah. LOTS of old bikes used to handle this way. Even my 1978 R100RS Motorsport did after Reg Pridmore was done with it, but THAT bike used to scare the bejesus out of the uninitiated who tried it because it changed direction SOOO quickly.

OK, this is an S4Rs, but are you SURE you know what you are letting yourself in for?  (Rhetorical)

[stopintime]

Rocker arms were an issue on the 916-engine of the S4.

This S4R has a 996-engine, a Desmoquatro, with no such issues.

 

[kopfjäger]

The evo was very planted. It wanted to go straight ahead and the amount of effort required to make it lean through the bends surprised me. Not that it wouldn't or didn't , it just took effort.

Up the steep and twisty valley sides I was taking it slow and steering with the bars not by body lean, and here again it took more effort.

Que?

[Raux]

I think buy the s4r

but go back and complain to th. dealer about the evo setup.  help him out