Good form vs bad form - photos

[Triple J]

My inside foot position doesn't seem right and I should be looking through the turn more. Chin up a little more. And I should fix my clutch lever. See anything else?

Looks pretty good. Besides getting the ball of your foot on the peg I'd also suggest tucking your foot up against the bike more. I tuck my foot in against the bike so it won't drag.

As you lean more keep focused on getting you're upper body off more. Eventually your outside arm should be laying on the tank. You're doing well so far though.

[stopintime]

They're raked out compared to a SBK, so they need even more weight on the front to make them stick.

I'm aware of riders commenting on the SF's confidence/cornering/..... issues.
The numbers tell a different story, so I still wonder why - is it just not suited for fast stable cornering? Is the suspension/chassis making it impossible? Lack of harmony between fork geometry, wheelbase, weight distribution? Seat height?

Rake / trail / tank size / wheelbase - all numbers point to the "fact" that a SF should have enough weight up front compared to a SBK...
The + 1.1 degree SF rake is minor and more than compensated by the 25mm shorter tank and the 35mm longer swingarm when measuring/determining weight bias.

I really don't know, but I wonder if the SF might in fact be so forward weighted that it becomes difficult to control when the going gets tough - requiring a much different suspension set up (like Ducati tried to on the SF848)

[Triple J]

I'm aware of riders commenting on the SF's confidence/cornering/..... issues.
The numbers tell a different story, so I still wonder why - is it just not suited for fast stable cornering? Is the suspension/chassis making it impossible? Lack of harmony between fork geometry, wheelbase, weight distribution? Seat height?

I'm not sure exactly why, just that the front has to be weighted more when pushing. I know 2 guys that have lost the front with them, and both were surprised it happened. The more experienced of the two still tracks it, but makes it a point to sit far forward on it.

[Slide Panda]

OK! Got some more evidence from some faster laps

Rolling into the first portion of a possible tiple (if done right double) apex turn 180+ degree turn at Shenandoah of summit point.


- Lower body good, not great. I am coming of jamming into the pegs to keep the rear tidy. The tip in point is just past a rise and the rear would dance a bit
- Good to better look
- Getting a bit more shovel on the arms, good
- Tad crossed at the shoulder. Not awful, but room for improvement.

Your thoughts?

[stopintime]

Can't really see what kind of corner that is, but the hips are pointing in and the shoulders out. Maybe that's just how it's going to be at that part of the corner - maybe there is room for improvement...

[Slide Panda]

Heres a link to the course map
http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30&Itemid=22

It's the one marked Old Ram - running counter clockwise making it a right. Tip in is after a short fast straight as you still have speed carried around the 180 at the end of he straight. It rises 6-8 feet at the end of the straight, levels  for a little bit and then decends about 20 starting as soon as the right begins with the lowest point being just at the apex of the 2nd right. Fun but a touch tricky

if you want to see it in action - Skip to 9:15, that's the tail end of the straight. The forum won't take time the stamp youTube URLs
Summit - 8-19 With Jim

[ducpainter]

Late to this party...

This is a couple of years ago...T2 at NHMS...that's the GP Tech I wore 3 times.



This is the next day in a borrowed helmet in T9.



Not horrible for an old guy.  

We can only strive to improve.

edit...

that said...fire away with any comments.

[$Lindz$]

Late to this party...

This is a couple of years ago...T2 at NHMS...that's the GP Tech I wore 3 times.



This is the next day in a borrowed helmet in T9.



Not horrible for an old guy.  

We can only strive to improve.

edit...

that said...fire away with any comments.

Honestly speaking: first pic looks like you're searching for the ground with your knee. Your arms are pretty straight and your upper body is centered over the tank too much. Second pic looks way better! you're more evenly hanging your body off and it looks like your grip is reduced a bit, arms more bent, etc.

But looking at these photos as reference, you can still go further. You're still a little crossed up. Hold the grips like a screwdriver and drop both your shoulder and your elbow towards the apex of the turn. This would be the more "modern" riding style, where you're trying to keep the bike as upright as possible to get max grip and drive through and out of the corner.

Having said all that, you go and watch Mick Doohan or Kevin Schwantz and they're all sorts of crossed-up with tons of bike lean and not much upper-body movement at all. And they are quite obviously much more accomplished riders than any of us (well, me at least).

[$Lindz$]

Here's me:


Last month at Turn 4 Big Willow. This is a weird double apex top-of-the-hill turn that sets you up for a downhill braking zone into Turn 5. Stock suspension on the R6, front end chatter and "buzzing", I was pushing pretty hard and I wasn't confident to relax my grip like I needed to. The result is my elbow sucking in close to my torso and not giving me any leverage to stand the bike up out of the corners.



- Grip too tight on bars
- Elbow close to body
- Upper body not over enough, really only my head/shoulders are




This past weekend, Turn 6 at Big Willow after Ohlins NIX30 carts and TTX rear shock. It's up over a crest with a wheelie going down the hill. You come out of the Turn 5 left-hander ON the ground in 3rd and you short shift into 4th as you transition back right and just pin it full throttle over this hill trying to cut it as close to the apex as possible to straight-line down the hill (mind the headshake), straight through 7 (click into 5 before this) and then into 8 with some mega speed. So yeah, you have to hang off quite a bit so that you don't go blasting off course at the top of 4th top of a hill.



- More relaxed "screwdriver" grip on the bars
- Elbow dropped lower to ground/apex
- Knee not as far out "searching" for location (because my upper body is much more aware and I had a LOT more confidence in the bike).



As you can see, I was riding with much more confidence in the bike at this pace in the second pics. And I was going faster without "pushing" harder (always the best!). Even though these corners are totally different the principle is the same. And I'm always trying to improve more, by no means is this perfect.

My riding style is this: hang off the bike a lot! Move as much of your body as you can inside "the triangle" between ground and bike centerline at lean. Relax your grip, drop your elbow, then lastly extend your shoulder as far away from the bike as you can so you can start rolling it upright for drive while your BP holds it in the turn as long as you need. Then follow the bike up and get into your tuck.

I'm always critiquing my pics so I can improve the next time out. Stuff like "don't search with your knee so much - you lose focus - just lean the bike harder, faster and let the ground come to you. Then start rolling the bike upright and getting maximum drive out."

[ducpainter]

Honestly speaking: first pic looks like you're searching for the ground with your knee. Your arms are pretty straight and your upper body is centered over the tank too much. Second pic looks way better! you're more evenly hanging your body off and it looks like your grip is reduced a bit, arms more bent, etc.

But looking at these photos as reference, you can still go further. You're still a little crossed up. Hold the grips like a screwdriver and drop both your shoulder and your elbow towards the apex of the turn. This would be the more "modern" riding style, where you're trying to keep the bike as upright as possible to get max grip and drive through and out of the corner.

Having said all that, you go and watch Mick Doohan or Kevin Schwantz and they're all sorts of crossed-up with tons of bike lean and not much upper-body movement at all. And they are quite obviously much more accomplished riders than any of us (well, me at least).

The left arm thing is a pretty common issue with people that ride at Loudon.

It's a l/h track and we tend to do just what's necessary.

I've improved a bit since those pics were taken...not sure about body position as I can't find a decent pic, but I got tons faster.

Not as fast as Doohan...maybe Schwantz.

Thanks for the input.

[bob795]

How fast was the speed when those pictures taken? And, do you guys also ride at that speed and lean like that when riding on twisty road /public road outside a track?

I'm curious, cause I've never had a track day ... and the only times I can lean my bike is on twisty road or on any corner which is on public road, but never at high speed, only between 50kph or 60 kph to 80 kph.

[Slide Panda]

As you might expect - the speeds in most of those photos is higher than what your mention, but the turn shown in my photo is probably 50-60 k at the first tip in and building up from there. The long(est) straight before that is approaching or just beyond 160 to 170 kph on my bike, which is slow for things like that.

The course I run has a lot of turns so the speeds, save for the long straight don't get too high.

Regarding leaning the bike... this isn't so much a discussion of lean on the bike, but our position on the bike and how it effects the lean and control of the bike. Do you have a riding buddy or two? If so anyone got a camera they can mount to a bike and follow you? Video or even a series of stills won't lie and can tell one much about what you're doing one the bike vs what your *think* you're doing.

[ducpainter]

How fast was the speed when those pictures taken? And, do you guys also ride at that speed and lean like that when riding on twisty road /public road outside a track?

I'm curious, cause I've never had a track day ... and the only times I can lean my bike is on twisty road or on any corner which is on public road, but never at high speed, only between 50kph or 60 kph to 80 kph.

The 2 photos of me are at roughly 80-90 mph/128-145 kph. I don't have a speedo, and if you've never ridden a 996 you can't tell what gear you're in. It just goes.

I don't ride like that on the road.

[thought]

It's hard to tell but it sort of looks like you're trying to keep your head parallel to the ground/horizon line in these pics. Past few rider coaches I had made a point of saying that that shouldnt happen... but then again it could just be because of where the apex/exit is on those turns.

[$Lindz$]

Parallel to the ground or perpendicular?

I'll take note next time I'm out and see if I catch myself doing it, but I think it's the angle of the pics... I dunno. I'll find out next time I ride.