Ignitech TCIP4, again

[carbmon]

I've been reading all the threads I can find as I consider getting an Ignitech TCIP4 for my carby 750.  I'm rebuilding the harness now and the TCIP unit would accomodate future engine mods. Obviously I'd be getting the most current revision of the Ignitech unit buying it 'today'.

I've been through the long thread on TOB, Brad Black's pages and this thread about the need for resistor plugs which is the basis of my quesion.

The coil/wires/plugs setup (all from CA Cycleworks long ago) I've run with the OEM modules for about 7k miles is:

• Coils - Dynatek green coils (DC3-1; 3 ohm; impedance: 13.3MH for the primary and 56.8H for the secondary)
• Wires - NGK CR5 #8515 spark plug cables with a 5k ohm resistor built in to the plug end cap
• Plugs - NGK NON-RESISTOR spark plugs DP8EVX-9

I can’t afford to replace burned-out TCIP units, so I want to try to get this right from the start.  I’d rather take a conservative/protective approach in regards to the TCIP unit.

QUESTIONS:
With the resistor in the plug wire cap, should I also change to resistor plugs just to be sure I don’t damage the TCIP unit?
What is the downside of ‘doubling-up’ on the suppression with both resistor caps and resistor plugs (danger to components or performance problems)?

EDIT – SUMMARY OF CONCLUSIONS FROM ANSWERS BELOW:

• Coils – 3ohm coils are OK but offer no significant advantage over 5ohm coils
• Wires – High quality non-resistor wires/caps are preferred
• Plugs - RESISTOR spark plugs are needed to protect the Ignitech unit

TIA

(ps- I’ve compiled an edited version of the long Ignitech TCIP thread from TOB with out-of-date group buy posts and non-technical posts (attaboys, etc) removed.  It is still a long document but has great learning curve information from the early adopters of this unit.  If you would like a PDF copy, send your email in a PM).

[koko64]

I remember having a discussion with Ducatiz regarding this question. He had some helpful insights, but I no longer have the pm. Maybe he will chime in, or you could pm him yourself.

I'm no sparky, but a few points stayed with me from that thread:
1) Igniteck recommend using resistor plugs
2) Resistor plugs have been oem for a long time
3) The failures were linked to using non resistor plugs
4) The use of high output coils and low resistance performance leads was ok if used with a resistor plug.
5) Bike manufacturers specify resistor plugs to protect ECUs, etc.

FWIW I'm running high output coils with NGK race leads and iridium projected reach resistor plugs with large .9mm gaps and no problems.

Welcome any contributions from any sparkies out there.

[carbmon]

.... FWIW I'm running high output coils with NGK race leads and iridium projected reach resistor plugs with large .9mm gaps and no problems.

Welcome any contributions from any sparkies out there.

I agree with your summary.  I guess what I'm really trying to decide is, when (not if) I install resistor plugs, should I change my leads back to a non-resistor cap-type, or is it OK to keep running the resistor caps, too?

If this is the “NGK race lead” (note mention of the 5k ohm resistor in the “resistor cover”) you’re running, that may be my answer.  Those are what I currently have.  If you’ve been running those with the resistor plugs, your “no problems” experience may be the empirical proof it’s OK.

If your NGK race leads are without the resistor cap, can you point me to that item?

Thanks!

EDIT - finding other sites that say use resistor wies OR plugs OR caps but don't combine 'em .... calling all 'sparkies' out there ..... help !

[koko64]

Correct. I was advised to use low resistance leads (no resistor in cap) with resistor plugs. You can get race cable and fit the cap of your choice. By race leads I meant leads with low resistance (no resistor) and high conductivity, but get well insulated ones!

Edit.

Where did you buy the race leads with cap resistor?

[carbmon]

Correct. I was advised to use low resistance leads (no resistor in cap) with resistor plugs. You can get race cable and fit the cap of your choice. By race leads I meant leads with low resistance (no resistor) and high conductivity, but get well insulated ones!

Edit.

Where did you buy the race leads with cap resistor?

The leads I have came with the coils & plugs as a package from Chris Kelley long ago when he sold the 'Dyna greens'.  By fluke I still have the original packaging for all of that stuff - that's where I found mention of the resistor in the cap, confirmed by info on NGK's current site (they're still sold as "race wires").

The wire itself is a plain copper lead - good stuff with good insulation.  Though the resistor cap is a nice molded end, I suppose it could be replaced with separately available non-resistor NGK race caps.

[ducatiz]

Spot on.

Do not use non-resistor plugs with the TCI unit.

I have a beautiful set of spark wires I got from Chris Kelley/CA which are "MAGSTAR" type wire and have no resistor in the cap.

NGK makes 0,3,and 5Ω caps for making your own kit.

There is no issue with using 3Ω coils, but the real performance gains are minimal compared to good quality standard 5Ω coils.

I remember having a discussion with Ducatiz regarding this question. He had some helpful insights, but I no longer have the pm. Maybe he will chime in, or you could pm him yourself.

I'm no sparky, but a few points stayed with me from that thread:
1) Igniteck recommend using resistor plugs
2) Resistor plugs have been oem for a long time
3) The failures were linked to using non resistor plugs
4) The use of high output coils and low resistance performance leads was ok if used with a resistor plug.
5) Bike manufacturers specify resistor plugs to protect ECUs, etc.

FWIW I'm running high output coils with NGK race leads and iridium projected reach resistor plugs with large .9mm gaps and no problems.

Welcome any contributions from any sparkies out there.

[koko64]

Thanks Ducatiz
So would you run the wires with a resistor cap and resistor plugs? Too much resistance? Power robbing or possible damage to the coils?
For example Dyna coils or Exactfit coils with the aforementioned NGK race wires and NGK DPR8EA-9 or DPR8EIX-9?

Or should we use a non resistor wire with such plugs as Carbmon suggests? I also have used straight copper wire with screw on black non-resistor NGK caps.

Anyone tried Dragon Spark Plug wires from TPO?

[koko64]

Carbmon
Thanks for the pdf file. Its now in my ignition file.

[ducatiz]

Thanks Ducatiz
So would you run the wires with a resistor cap and resistor plugs? Too much resistance? Power robbing or possible damage to the coils?
For example Dyna coils or Exactfit coils with the aforementioned NGK race wires and NGK DPR8EA-9 or DPR8EIX-9?

Or should we use a non resistor wire with such plugs as Carbmon suggests? I also have used straight copper wire with screw on black non-resistor NGK caps.

Anyone tried Dragon Spark Plug wires from TPO?

I would run either R caps or R plugs, not both.  I use the DPR8EIX-9 plugs and the Magstar wires which are defintely not resistor type.

Also, it's always a good idea to put wires on a multitester.

I think the Dragon Spark wires use Magstar wiring.

[koko64]

Thanks Tiz, it's as we thought. I saved our past pm discussion on this somewhere.. Couldn't remember where, so had to ask again!

I was saying to Carbmon that intuitively, I liked the resistor at tne end of the ignition chain (in the plug).

[carbmon]

Thanks V Much Ducatiz and koko64, I’ve summarized these conclusions in an edit to my first post:

• Coils – 3ohm coils are OK but offer no significant advantage over 5ohm coils
• Wires – High quality non-resistor wires/caps are preferred
• Plugs - RESISTOR spark plugs are needed to protect the Ignitech unit

So for me to get to the ‘preferred setup’ I need to change the wires to non-resistor caps and switch to resistor plugs.

Looking at wires, some choices are:

Convert NGK red Racing Wires to non-resistor cap:
Cut the end cap off and install NGK LZFH 8381 non-resistor caps.  Koko64 just PM’d me that he did this end-cap swap with great initial results: “I was most surprised to have a stronger idle! It was immediately noticeable” (he’s running resistor plugs to protect the electronics from RFI). This provides empirical support for Ducatiz’ suggestion that ‘doubling up’ resistor plugs with resistor caps is not a good idea (as if we needed support for Ducatiz’ advice ).

Magstar wires:
Not on the CA Cycleworks website that I can find but per Ducatiz, contact them and see about this item.    Magstar wires claim good RFI suppression with only 100ohm/ft resistance.

Dragon wires:
Available from TPO for the Ducati, TPO says these sets use MSD Super Conductor wire claiming <50ohm/ft resistance with good RFi supression.

Wire resistance test:
Ducatiz suggests a test of wire assemblies, I assume that’s the simple check illustrated in this MSD tech sheet, looking of course for a value appropriate to the length of wire in hand and the ohm/ft rating of your wire.


Thanks again Ducatiz & koko64 for the guidance!  I’m lots more confident now that I understand what is needed to protect my Ignitech investment

[koko64]

Been tuning a 944 Superlight. Strong bike.
Those of you tuning Igntech and not just running the default, canned map, just a reminder that depending on how old the unit is will determine the PC/laptop operating system and the Ignitech program required to access it.

I am running a V80 model and it worked ok with Windows XP. The Superlight has a V75 model and it likes older software to talk to. It will not talk to XP and you can forget Vista! There is an older model again that probably needs Windows 95 or 98! I have the disc software for each model so thats no issue and you can download what you need from the Ignitech website to suit your model. You will know pretty quickly if your software is incompatible as you will be notified of this on screen (usually).

So that old clunker of a laptop you were going to throw out could be useful. The modules use a serial port so I run a serial port/USB adaptor cable and disc with the driver software to download. I had to find an older laptop we still had with XP to use with my bike.

So don't panic if you struggle to get a connection once you plug in with your laptop. It could be incompatible PC/laptop software with the module, the serial port driver (or lack of), the communication channel (you have to choose one that actually works out of those listed and often only one out of twenty or so actually works), or the Ignitech disc software not being compatible with your model module. I received the incorrect disc with my module and was stuffing around for hours before realising. I downloaded all three of the programs to disc to make sure.

As a product it's brilliant and has very useful features, but there are some half arsed aspects in regards to user friendliness and instructions to get it operating. Once operating it is vert user friendly I reckon. Once you are up and running you realise how cheap and nasty the stock ingnition is! Later models let you see on screen in real time whats going on with the ignition in regards to diagnosis with the bike running, very useful indeed.

Brad Black goes into great detail about the system on Bikeboy.org and the DMF Ignitech thread is a beauty to search out. I thought I'd post this as a reminder to those considering the unit or haven't played with it for awhile.
Cheers.

[ducatiz]

I am running a V80 model and it worked ok with Windows XP. The Superlight has a V75 model and it likes older software to talk to. It will not talk to XP and you can forget Vista! There is an older model again that probably needs Windows 95 or 98! I have the disc software for each model so thats no issue and you can download what you need from the Ignitech website to suit your model. You will know pretty quickly if your software is incompatible as you will be notified of this on screen (usually).

I have TCIP4 version 54, 75 and 80 all running on a Windows 7 system with no problem.

The only problem is if you have a pre v54 system and no hard-wired serial port as that software does not recognize virtual COM ports.  v54 recognizes up to COM16, V75 and 80 both recognize up to like COM30 or so.

I have no idea why you have problem with vista or Win7 with v75.

[koko64]

Wow, really?
Good to hear, but not my experience unfortunately. I will try Vista again with my V80 and serial/USB adaptor. My V80 was fine with xp. Maybe another driver might make it work. The V75 didnt like it with xp or Vista. "incompatible software with ign75" kept appearing on the screen.

[ducatiz]

Wow, really?
Good to hear, but not my experience unfortunately. I will try Vista again with my V80 and serial/USB adaptor. My V80 was fine with xp. Maybe another driver might make it work. The V75 didnt like it with xp or Vista. "incompatible software with ign75" kept appearing on the screen.

What's the full message?  Do you mean in the TCIP4 software?