Starting Procedure

[He Man]

What exactly goes through the ECU as it wants to start a bike?

I've finnaly made a video of whats going on and to my understanding, even if the voltage drops too low (which it always does on a lead acid) the starter will try to cycle and studder before stoping its sequence. If and when i can get the bike started, she starts back up without any issues at all and she starts very strongly, its just the initial start up that's nearly impossible.

Heres a video of what it always does. It just stops and cuts out. The ground wire goes from the negative end of the battery to the bolt located next to the crank case breather. My frame is fully clear coated so is there a chance that its a bad ground?

Just ignore me when i say connect the fuel pump disconnected. The wire if you look closely is indeed disconnected, but once i connected it there was no change in the behavior and the other video was crappy.

[Speeddog]

What's the condition of the ground wire from the battery to the crankcase?

Connection to the case clean and tight?

[He Man]

Yup, i removed it, saw no dirty connections and placed some dielectric grease and bolted it back onto the motor. Case is clean as a whistle. The battery side is nice and tight as well, checked the OEM Crimping for damage, found none.

[battlecry]

He, I've been following a thread on ADVRIDER about Li batteries:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

Check the chart of amp-hour capacity for Li batteries down the page.  If it is correct, 12.9V is not fully charged, it is only 20-30%

The warning is: do not allow resting voltage to fall below 12.86V or they go south.  

They discuss these batteries needing a different charger profile, not the trickle chargers we use with AGM or Pb batteries.  

They also discuss a method of starting in cold weather that involves heating the battery by draining it with a few false starts or something.

I think your battery is not fully charged and that is why the voltage drops below the ECU trip point.

Can you borrow another charged battery and test start your Monster?

I *think* you may still be able to ride this w/e.   

[He Man]

I double checked with Ballasitic, you are right, the voltage is low, but their minimum is 9volts, they should be at 14.4. Anything below 6v and they need to be repalced.

however, it is still higher than an AGM battery, so technically speaking, i shouldnt have an issue. my previous AGM batt would drop as low as 8v and it wouldnt quit it just turn verryyyyy slowly.

I put the battery on a charger. We'll see how she turns tomorrow.

I am familar with the cold start procedure, but it shouldnt be necessary for this temp. Only for very cold temps. Even then, ive heard people not having too much of an issue with the 8cell. So i should be good to go with the 12 cell.

[Howie]

He, I've been following a thread on ADVRIDER about Li batteries:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

Check the chart of amp-hour capacity for Li batteries down the page.  If it is correct, 12.9V is not fully charged, it is only 20-30%

The warning is: do not allow resting voltage to fall below 12.86V or they go south.  

They discuss these batteries needing a different charger profile, not the trickle chargers we use with AGM or Pb batteries.  

They also discuss a method of starting in cold weather that involves heating the battery by draining it with a few false starts or something.

I think your battery is not fully charged and that is why the voltage drops below the ECU trip point.

Can you borrow another charged battery and test start your Monster?

I *think* you may still be able to ride this w/e.   

Yep.  http://www.shoraipower.com/s.nl/it.I/id.5/.f  Scroll down to the chart.  Your meter is also showing a drop to 9.1 volts while cranking, No?  Chances are your meter is too slow to catch the real drop.  Weak battery.

An easy way to check if you have a good ground is simply take your voltmeter.  Positive on a starter mounting bolt.  Negative on the battery negative terminal.  Crank engine.  If you read more than .5 volts you have excessive voltage drop.  Repair as needed.  No connection should have more than .2 volts.  All connections good but there is still too much voltage drop?  The starter motor may not be grounding well to the engine.  Run a heavy gauge jumper wire from a starter end bolt to battery negative.  Excessive voltage drop cured?  Run a permanent wire.  Needless to say this is based on a known good battery.

 

[He Man]

howie you mentioned that previously,

there is only one bolt on the starter thats for the positive lead (off the relay), if i run a negative lead off it, wont that just cause a short?

Strange enough i put this battery on a 1098, and theres no problem cranking that SOB. Once the battery is charged in the morning, ill report back with results. Hopefully they will be satisfying and it is just a poorly charged battery.

[Howie]

howie you mentioned that previously,

there is only one bolt on the starter thats for the positive lead (off the relay), if i run a negative lead off it, wont that just cause a short?

Big time!!!  Not from there, a through bolt that holds the starter together.  Or from a mounting bolt.  The starter case is ground.

[thought]

Cold this just be the same kind of issue that the newer monsters have been having?  Like in that huge thread over the 796 cold start issues along with some stories I've read about the same issue pertaining to the m1100.

As in, sometimes when trying to start it after a cold start, it will fire up and then just die and wont start again.  After waiting a bit, it will start up just fine.  Intermittent and with no real symptoms as to when/why it happens.

[Howie]

Cold this just be the same kind of issue that the newer monsters have been having?  Like in that huge thread over the 796 cold start issues along with some stories I've read about the same issue pertaining to the m1100.

As in, sometimes when trying to start it after a cold start, it will fire up and then just die and wont start again.  After waiting a bit, it will start up just fine.  Intermittent and with no real symptoms as to when/why it happens.

It is possible.  Paint/sealer can affect the ground from the motor. 

[He Man]

Big time!!!  Not from there, a through bolt that holds the starter together.  Or from a mounting bolt.  The starter case is ground.

oh you mean one THOSE bolts. Gonna have to dig through the  bucket of wire, i know i have some large guage wire from a house i tore apart last year and test the starter.

i could strip the paint off the ground on the case and give it another shot if the battery charging does not work out.

[battlecry]

My bet is still a depleted battery, He Man.  I run a lighter Yuasa 7Z battery so I changed the ground and starter cables to 4 ga. and use the headlamp gizmo to eliminate the headlamp when starting the motor.  When the battery is not topped up, it behaves just like your vid when trying to start the bike.   

Check the resting voltage of the battery against the amp-capacity table on the Advrider link before cranking.  If it doesn't fire right up after a full charge, try testing with another good battery before you add more cables. 

[He Man]

battlecry, you get the oscar!!

I charged the battery to a standing voltage of 13.4v when i hit the starter it would cut out at 10v and as howie stated, the refresh rate of the DVOM is probably too low to detect the actual low.

So i swapped it for an AGM. problem solved. Though all my wires are all mangled because i resoldered them for the lithium setup.

also, howie, i ran in parallel the voltmeter between the POS terminal and the starter. I was reading the same voltage across the battery, when i hit the starter, i would get into the decimal voltages. ~0.7 during cranking, im sure this isnt normal, but it doesnt affect starting for the AGM battery.

[battlecry]

I got java disabled on my browser, otherwise I'd say, *thumbs up*, *dolph*, and *chug*.

[He Man]

This is going to be the 3rd battery. THe original battery was repalced under warranty, and now it will be replaced again...