Engine Breaking VS Brakes

[Anchorism]

Being an MSF coach, I do not condone such an action of lifting the rear wheel.  Last time I checked its not a safe way to come to a stop no matter how "good" you are at doing so.  Obviously when the rear tire is off the ground you dont have stopping power from it.  Common sense.  Dont get me wrong, I enjoyed doing so on my supermoto when I had it.  But look at it this way, how many pro riders believe its the best way to stop??? hint.... (none)  In the MSF course, it is required to utilize BOTH brakes otherwise you are docked points on your ridden exam.  Also is an individual is lifting the rear over and over without attempting to correct the action, some coaches might consider it as an intentional unsafe act.  Getting "coached out" for something like that is no bueno.  

Yes my 796 has more than enough brake to pull the rear up.  So what happens when that rear end is up in the air, and your front hits a patch of not so ideal road?  Bad stuff.....  Id much rather be stopping with my ass planted.....

[Anchorism]

It's easy to tell which type of bike you're riding. 

Also what the heck is that supposed to mean?? lol. 

[Cloner]

Also what the heck is that supposed to mean?? lol. 

In my opinion there are two types of bikes.  Those that benefit from the rear brake under maximum braking and those that don't.  If the front slides the bike will benefit.  If the rear lifts it won't.  I'm not advocating demonstrably lifting the rear under maximum braking as a matter of course, but the simple fact (in my mind) is that most modern sportbikes will stop at least as quickly and definitely more safely via proper modulation of the front brake than by a combination of both front and rear brakes.  It's simple mathematics. 

F=(mu)N  F is friction force between two surfaces, in this case the tire and the road surface.  Mu (I've denoted it thus because I don't know how to conjure the actual Greek character on this forum) is a Greek letter designating friction coefficient of two surfaces in relation to each other....in this case rubber and asphalt.  N is the normal force (the force perpindicular to the interface) between two surfaces.  If the combined weight of the bike and rider are transfered to the front wheel (and it is on moden sportbikes), then N at the interface between the front wheel and the road surface is equal to the combined weight of the bike and rider, and the normal force between the rear wheel and the road surface is zero.

Further....the combined effort of both brakes can NEVER be more than this, as the normal force on both wheels can never be more than the combined weight of the bike and rider. 

The reason I say it's safer (for most riders) to use only the front brake under maximum braking with modern sportbikes is that as the weight transfers forward and the possible braking effort at the rear decreases, it becomes VERY easy to break traction at the rear.  This generally results in yaw, and most riders don't react well to yaw ("backing it in").  Many will simply increase effort, increasing yaw and resulting in a visit to the immediate weight loss clinic via extreme abrasion.

I use the rear brake on my sportbike.  I use it to tighten my line in turns.  I use it to settle suspension on corner entry.  In my book that's all it's good for.

MSF is a course designed to teach the multitude of riders safe riding habits.  I love MSF, and every time I ride (especially on the street...love those traffic coping skills!) I use many of the skills I learned over the course of several visits to MSF led classes.  I have several friends who are MSF coaches.  I have a few friends who are MSF coaches and racers.  MSF teaches use of the rear brake because for 90% (or more) of riders it's absolutely the right thing to do.  If I rode a Hardley (I do race one....and I use the rear brake on it 'cause it won't lift the rear), or a Goldwing, or a fat Bimmer, or a '70s anything, or virtually any bike that's not a sportbike produced since the late '80s, I'd use the rear brake early and often.  I don't ride those bikes (except for the aforementioned Harley...which is actually an Aermacchi....but don't tell anyone), and I realized several decades ago that what I was taught wasn't appropriate to my riding habits in the case of "emergency" braking (or maximum braking on the track).  I adapted.  The MSF coaches with whom I race have likewise adapted their habits when riding at a pace, and are happy to tell their friends in private that the lessons taught by MSF are not always appropriate.

As to your assertion that no "pros riders" believe front modulation only is the best way to stop, I'd refer you to nearly any racer you've ever known or heard of.  If he's stopping, he'll use the front.  If he's slowing to turn, he may use the rear to intentionally induce yaw.  I've never developed that habit, but I'm a crappy racer by comparison. 

Ever watch a race and notice that nearly everyone's rear wheel only lightly skims the track in the braking zones?  N=0!

[Raux]

one thing that goes against what you are saying is the new MV ABS with anti-rear lift.

[Triple J]

In a track situation (or even a street situation), one should probably not rely on the engine to slow you down. 

Exactly. You rely on the brakes.

It's pretty much impossible not to have some engine brake effect when downshifting going into a corner though, especially if you don't have a slipper. The key is to ignore it.

[betarace]

Here is an article on the subject by Keith Code

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=310

[somegirl]

I use the rear brake on my sportbike.  I use it to tighten my line in turns.  I use it to settle suspension on corner entry.  In my book that's all it's good for.

Also:
- riding with a passenger
- uphill starts
- if you end up in the dirt
- drag during slow tight turns

[Cloner]

Here is an article on the subject by Keith Code

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=310

Nice article, betarace.  I spend the bulk of my time on street rides doing exactly this....riding at a "no brakes" pace.  It makes riding with the people I ride with more fun and sharpens turning skills at the same time.

You can also read the article entitled "The Pace", which advocates the same principles.

[swampduc]

+11tyb. The only time I ever use the rear is When I'm in the grass at the track.

So every other session? 

[El Matador]

So every other session? 

-.-
*grumble grumble grumble*

[Anchorism]

You can throw math and numbers at anything that doesnt mean it makes it more safe.  I would love to elaborate on this but the threadjacking has gone on long enough.  It really boils down to everyone is different and what works for them works for them. 

[Greg]

+11tyb. The only time I ever use the rear is When I'm in the grass at the track.

Been there.. done that 

[polivo]

The rear brake accounts for 30% of your stopping power.  Although some find the rear brake is ultra sensitive, it all boils down to how well you know your bike.  I admit for a while i had a problem with my rear brake as well.  I found it to be extremely sensitive, and in a quick stop situation it locked up more often than not.  Now that the riding season is here go to a safe location and practice prior to hitting the busy roads!  Practice your quick stops, PROPER swerving skills, and stopping in a turn.  It will make your season much more pleasing. 

Now as for the engine braking, I'm not going to say if its bad for the bike or not as i have NEVER had any issues doing so.  AS A TIP, if you do prefer engine braking, lightly apply one of your brake levers to activate the rear light!  My bike engine brakes very well and i do so ALL the time.  But you can bet your ass i make sure that light comes on whilst doing so.  I find that on great riding roads, ie Johanneskreuz here for us DE riders, engine braking helps you judge the speed necessary for safe cornering.  If you come flying up to a corner that has potentially high traffic and possibly an unknown corner to you, what good does it do to go hard on the brakes last second?  Yes it might be faster, but is it exactly more safe?  I am by no means trying to tell you how to ride or what to do, simply giving you something to think about! 

i am betting anchorism has an RC number?

[polivo]

For new riders I always suggest working on their engine breaking.. but for an entirely different reason.  First let me frame this.  Im talking about the average daily on road rider.
I believe that engine breaking inherently cause the rider to be "in gear" at all time.  For example, some rider may.. when slowing down, pull in the clutch .. and down shift, skipping several gear. Ie: from 5 to 3.  However, unlikely.. in that split moment when the clutch is disengaged.. and the rider is essentially coasting, if a hazard appears, this forces the rider to make a panic decision.
Where was I?  Should I re-engage the clucth now?  do i upshift? do i down shift? do i blip the throttle?
WHO KNOWS?  and that decision may have to be made in fractions of a second.  If the wrong decision is made, potential loss of traction ensues, loss of control. Hazard wins.
However, if the same rider.. give the same situation, engine brakes AS he is slowing.. he remains in gear and is ready to respond immediately to the hazard with 100 attention.  Just my 2 cents.

[Dirty Duc]

And what might not have been obvious from some of the posts... fastest on the track is not necessarily safest on the street (there are exceptions to every rule).  Cloner makes good points about riding fast, and Anchorism makes good points about riding safe... neither one is mutually exclusive.  In the end, if a rider wants to go fast, he/she can squid it up on a 'Busa or try to learn Duc speed... I'll bet money on which is the "better" rider.