forget the Mini/Smart/500...

[needtorque]

I'm not trying to get political, but I wanted to offer a counter argument.

the answer is there's no one answer.  but point by point:
1) First, the batteries, just like any other battery, will only last a few years.

True, -but they can be recycled.  

2) To replace them will cost more than the car is worth.

Doubtful, especially as recycling electric car batteries becomes a multi-billion dollar operation.  costs will come down.

3)Second, if the car is full electric you have to plug it in to charge.  Where is the energy to charge it coming from?  Power plants using fossil fuels.  

Any kind of electricty can charge a battery.  Coal, nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, wind, solar, hydroelectric, oceanic thermocouples, geothermal, balloons rubbed on poyester shirts, wool socks on carpets, you name it.  I'm simplifying of course, but the power doesn't need to come from coal mines only.  Plenty of renewables are reliable enough to be deployed right now, others are getting there.  There is no one true path to the power of the future they all have their own drawbacks and they all have their own advantages.  Recently people are becoming more aware of and less tolerant of the drawbacks of coal.  Will it be phased out completely?  doubtful- but as less polluting energy sources proliferate, coal will lose many of the advantages that have put it on top.

4)Third, the chemicals in the batteries are far worse for the environment than burning fossil fuels, and the batteries will fail.  

And gas leaks from pipelines and coal mining sludge runs into rivers.  The batteries will be recycled.  Mostly.  They represent too valuable of a source of battery building materials, and too great a potential source of pollution to let them rot in a landfill.

5)The best current option IMO is CNG which burns incredibly clean and is cheaper than gasoline.

CNG is probably part of a solution.  Natural gas is not infinite, and still burns carbon and creates carbon dioxide, which are some of the big downfalls of all fossil fuels.

To meet the energy needs of the 21st century, the status quo won't work.  There's not enough oil and too many people who want to burn it.  With an increasingly industrialized world population who all want to eat and raise kids, coupled with dwindling reserves of fossil fuels,(and clean water) something has to change,- maybe everything.  The answer can't be one thing- no solution fixes everything with no drawbacks, it will likely be a combination of 5 or ten big changes and a thousand smaller ones.  

My reply was in no way a political statement and I apologize if it came across that way.  I am an ASE certified mechanic and had some training with an alternative fuels researcher at U of M.  After the conversations with him I came to feel this way about different power sources.  I really like CNG as a fuel.  It does burn very clean and according to the person I spoke with, we had at that time in the US, enough CNG to power every vehicle we use for over 100 years.

[LowThudd]

Not entirely true. Much of the CNG is trapped in Shale and other substrates and Fracking with toxic chemicals is used to release it(not good). It is true that there are MANY sources for NG: Wetlands, farm waste, sewage, landfills, tundra, deep sea frozen Methane hydrate etc. But most of this just ends up evaporating and becoming a green house gas. I do agree that we COULD use NG, not only for fuel but also for Gasifacation into fuels like Syndiesel, the most clean and efficient "Diesel" fuel there is. Currently Nasa, the USAF and several aircraft manufacturers are running tests on Syndiesel as JetAV fuel. Looks like a great fuel, and it can be made from MANY things other than NG like dry biomass. There is one other contender, there has been a gen modified ecolli bacteria which consumes shit and poops Biodiesel. lol  Lots of cool stuff is going on, but nothing is being done with it.

If you want a vehicle that can run on Biofuel from the factory with no mods, the diesel is the only way. But as stated, even that is not the answer. There is no one best way. The best way is to make green vehicle for specific purposes, in whatever fuel source works best.

[Howie]

I was an alternative fuel trainer.  Rather than take items a point at a time I will just make some simple statements to try and shine some light.

There is no single magic bullet. Different fuels and technology appropriate for the particular application plus conservation are the answers.  In NYC, hybrid buses have worked out very well, about halved fuel consumption and tailpipe emissions plus long term reduced cost to the city.  Hybrid cars, mixed bag.   Municipal fleets, not so good.  Probably would have been better off with Honda Fits, or, even better, Metro Cards.  Hybrid Taxis, not sure, but I expect better, particularly during stop and go traffic.  Of course there is the problem of cradle to grave impact, particularly on early hybrids with nicad  batteries.

Natural gas?  Great fuel.  Much cleaner than gasoline and diesel.  It has it's drawbacks though.  Supply infrastructure and range are two biggies.  Extracting it from the environment, as mentioned by LowThud certainly count too.  Even E85 is a great fuel if used in a car specifically built to take advantage of it.  Do note I said great fuel, not good idea.  I don't even think we need to go there.  Bio diesel?  Also a great fuel, but right now, costly.  Electric has already been covered well enough, so...

Best yet is just use less.  Walk more, live closer to work, so on and so forth.

 

[77south]

On a lighter note, I recall reading somewhere that a rubber band stretched just short of the breaking point, has as much stored energy per pound as dynamite.  Wouldn't it be hilarious if the magic bullet for green cars was rubber bands?

[rule62]

The elio looks like it could be powered off of rubber bands... or hampsters.

[ducatiz]

I was an alternative fuel trainer.  Rather than take items a point at a time I will just make some simple statements to try and shine some light.

There is no single magic bullet. Different fuels and technology appropriate for the particular application plus conservation are the answers.  In NYC, hybrid buses have worked out very well, about halved fuel consumption and tailpipe emissions plus long term reduced cost to the city.  Hybrid cars, mixed bag.   Municipal fleets, not so good.  Probably would have been better off with Honda Fits, or, even better, Metro Cards.  Hybrid Taxis, not sure, but I expect better, particularly during stop and go traffic.  Of course there is the problem of cradle to grave impact, particularly on early hybrids with nicad  batteries.

Natural gas?  Great fuel.  Much cleaner than gasoline and diesel.  It has it's drawbacks though.  Supply infrastructure and range are two biggies.  Extracting it from the environment, as mentioned by LowThud certainly count too.  Even E85 is a great fuel if used in a car specifically built to take advantage of it.  Do note I said great fuel, not good idea.  I don't even think we need to go there.  Bio diesel?  Also a great fuel, but right now, costly.  Electric has already been covered well enough, so...

Best yet is just use less.  Walk more, live closer to work, so on and so forth.

 

How many BTUs are lost every day to farts being wasted into the atmosphere?

Every desk in Manhattan should have a fart vacuum and every Tuesday should be Taco Tuesday.

That would produce enough energy to power at least one taxi for a year.

Thy will be done.

[Monsterlover]

[Howie]

How many BTUs are lost every day to farts being wasted into the atmosphere?

Every desk in Manhattan should have a fart vacuum and every Tuesday should be Taco Tuesday.

That would produce enough energy to power at least one taxi for a year.

Thy will be done.

Or a lot of 

[needtorque]

My uncle has actually designed a perpetual motion device.  Simply strap a piece of jelly toast to the belly of a cat.  The jelly side must face the belly of the cat.  Drop the cat from any distance you like.

[muskrat]

I'll wait for this instead. http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/lit-motors-c1/

[ducatiz]

It's all gimmickry, all of it.

three wheeled cars?

show me one you can carry your family of 5 in comfortably.

electric cars?

they'll work on a limited basis, but the claims that "battery costs will come down" are just unicorn fart promises -- there is no guarantee they will come down in the next 100 years.  generations of batteries have come to a head in the last 20 years and there is nothing coming down the pike -- the best we have is LiON batteries.  anything new will be a fractional improvement and the cost of batteries will likely go UP not down as resources decrease and regulatory pressures for the increasing toxic production and waste increases (recycling isn't free, you know.. right now you can toss a battery in the trash for the land fill, in 10 years that will be a felony.)

hybrid?  just a stopgap.  diesel or CNG hybrids are really the best mix, but diesel has a bad name despite being the most "Green" of combustion fuels (biodiesel i mean).

three wheeled cars?  I used to love driving a coupe.  so fun.  now I have two kids.  my sister has 3 kids.  my wife's sister has 3 kids. 

the 20somethings and childless arrested adolescents living in big cities will love them, but most won't buy them if they have good mass transit.

sensible folks living in big cities will lean towards car rental and mass transit, or have just one car for commuting if necessary.  employers are on to this and many are providing private shuttles from pickup points (the train station near me has a surplus of private employers picking people up, the parking lot is filled with people who don't take the train, lol).

[JEFF_H]

Our shop delivery truck gets pretty good mileage 


on the fuel discussion...
i have been shopping for a small outboard for out 12' fishing boat, and looked at Li-Ion and Propane options.
each is offered by only 1 mfr each, and the pricing is high compared to std gas engine options
plus, being new technologies i havent seen either used.
tough to be an early adopter when you can get a nice Honda or Nissan used for 1/3 the price

[LowThudd]

on the fuel discussion...
i have been shopping for a small outboard for out 12' fishing boat, and looked at Li-Ion and Propane options.
each is offered by only 1 mfr each, and the pricing is high compared to std gas engine options
plus, being new technologies i havent seen either used.
tough to be an early adopter when you can get a nice Honda or Nissan used for 1/3 the price

Might consider a diesel: http://www.klaxondieseloutboards.com/ Lot's of makers of them, and some can be run on vegi oil. I've even run my Merc 300SD on a gallon of motor oil when I ran out of fuel, no where near a fuel station. I would only recommend that as a last resort, but it worked..

[LowThudd]

Also, marine diesel can be bought for 2/3 the price of gas. 

[justinrhenry]

This is horrible... horrible I tell ya.