MotoGP for Dummies

[1.21GW]

First full season watching MotoGP, so got a lot of learn.  Few questions:

- On Speed, announcers were talking during Austin race about how COTA was a Honda track, not a Yamaha track.  What is the difference between the two bikes that makes a track Honda/Yamaha?

- Why do Honda/Yamaha dominate MotoGP but Italian bikes dominate WSBK?

- My understanding is: Marquez's whole elbow-touching technique is result of him leaning over more and so the bike itself it a bit more upright, thus allowing more tyre contact.  All things being equal, this is an advantage because he gets more traction.  Is this correct?  If so, (theoretically) when I ride would focusing on leaning my body more rather than leaning the bike provide greater traction (I understand my conditions are VASTLY than MotoGP, but still, at low speed turns does this hold)?

[Triple J]

Derby or gm2 will correct anything I get wrong below! 

The Yamahas are more corner speed bikes, while the Hondas prefer the corner to be squared up with a good drive out. The hairpins at COTA favor the Honda style. I don't think the Yamahas used to be like that, but it's JLo's style, so they've evolved to that style over the last couple years with him being the #1 rider.

In MotoGP, Honda/Yamaha have bigger budgets and more experience and engineers. Ducati is a relative newcomer, and went the wrong direction over the last few years. Now Ducati is trying to compete with a twin spar aluminum frame, which is new to them, while Honda/Yamaha have a ton of experience with that system. Not surprising that Ducati isn't on the same level yet. That said, they're "only" about 1-1.5 seconds/lap behind. Not slow...just not fast enough.

Aprilia currently dominates WSBK...but Kawi & BMW are close if not even. No surprise that Aprilia and BMW are full factory efforts (maybe even Kawi?). When Ducati dominated they were also a full factory effort. Ducati is doing anything but dominating now, but their current problem is mainly due to intake restrictors imposed because twins are given a 200cc advantage.

MM's skill is more than just body position and traction. It's overall technique (body position, braking, etc), combined with natural talent, and huge balls. Correct body position is always a good goal though, especially at the track. You're correct in that hanging off means the bike's lean angle is less and thus the tire's contact patch is larger. Sport Riding Techniques and Total Control are good references for proper riding techniques, including body position.

[Spidey]

First full season watching MotoGP, so got a lot of learn.  Few questions:

- On Speed, announcers were talking during Austin race about how COTA was a Honda track, not a Yamaha track.  What is the difference between the two bikes that makes a track Honda/Yamaha?

- Why do Honda/Yamaha dominate MotoGP but Italian bikes dominate WSBK?

- My understanding is: Marquez's whole elbow-touching technique is result of him leaning over more and so the bike itself it a bit more upright, thus allowing more tyre contact.  All things being equal, this is an advantage because he gets more traction.  Is this correct?  If so, (theoretically) when I ride would focusing on leaning my body more rather than leaning the bike provide greater traction (I understand my conditions are VASTLY than MotoGP, but still, at low speed turns does this hold)?

That's three separate threads.

The Honda and the Yamaha are designed differently.  The Honda is a point and shoot bike.  It's fast in a straight line and is designed to get through corners not based on carrying corner speed, but based on sliding the rear, standing the bike up early and getting on the power as early as possible.  So, tracks with a lot of straightaways, tight turns and stop and go braking tend to favor the Hondas.   The Yamahas are designed for balance and to carry corner speed (like Lorenzo does).  They do better at more flowing tracks.

By Italian bikes, you mean Ducati and Aprilia.  They've 'dominated' for different reasons.  Ducati has owned the series for years because they focused on WSBK when no one else really did, and because the rules have often favored the Ducs.  The Aprilia is different.  First, as a production bike, it's the closest thing to a GP bike one can get.  So it's already ahead of the curve.  Second, Aprilia doesn't have a GP team, so the factory's racing focus can be on WSBK.  Third, the Italians haven't been shy about making low batch production models of their bikes that are basically race bikes.  The Japanese factories don't do that because . . . I guess because no one is going to pay 30k for a CBR.

As for the leaning/hanging off thing . . . Marquez hangs off the bike a lot, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is standing it up more.  The purpose of hanging off is that you *can* stand the bike up more, but you don't always do it.  From what I've seen, Marquez still carries a lot of lean on a GP bike (ala Moto2), when he could be standing it up earlier.  It works for him, but just b/c he's waaaaaay off the bike doesn't mean that he's getting on the meat of the tire earlier. Watch Pedrosa for an example of getting a bike stood up early.  The elbow thing?  That's  just the new fad, and it looks f'n cool.  

For your riding, hanging off some will help, but for street riding, line selection is way more important than whether you hang off the bike.  In principle though, as long as you stand the bike up, you will have more traction hanging off than if you do not.  Finally, the issue is not really more "tyre contact".  Motorcycles have a decent sized contact patch when they're on their side.  The issue is more  whether can put the power down to the ground without losing traction.  The more upright the bike, the easier it is to get power down to the ground and the less likely you are to run out of traction while cornering.

[Spidey]

Sport Riding Techniques and Total Control are good references for proper riding techniques, including body position.

Like Triple J said, if you want to figure out the "hanging off" thing, do some book reading.  You'll find it really interesting.

Just be aware that there are all sorts of ongoing arguments about the how to steer a bike, why hanging off works, and what are the best/fastest/safest ways though a corner.  But Sport Riding Techniques and Total Control are good places to start.   

[1.21GW]

Thanks all.

Follow up: Don't the teams adjust the bikes for each track?  If that's the case, can't they dramatically alter the set up of the Yamahas for a straights/Hondas for cornering?

Also, guess it's time for a re-read of my Total Control.

That's three separate threads.

Yeah, I guess you're right.  But as I continue to watch and more questions arise, I'm coming back here. 

[Triple J]

Good points by Spidey on the contact patch (among other things). The issue isn't the size of the contact patch like I said, but how much of the contact patch is being used to resist lateral cornering forces. The farther leaned over, the more that is being used by cornering forces. One of the books relates traction to a scale of 1-10, with 10 being all the traction that is ever available. When upright all 10 is available for acceleration, but when at full lean maybe only 1 is available for acceleration (the rest being used for cornering). Hanging off (in theory) stands the bike up more, freeing up more of the 10 points for acceleration.

[Spidey]

Follow up: Don't the teams adjust the bikes for each track?  If that's the case, can't they dramatically alter the set up of the Yamahas for a straights/Hondas for cornering?

They do adjust them, but not dramatically.  They can't change the fundamental nature of the bikes.  The engine location, the frame stiffness and flex, suspension brand and components, the way the bike is designed around the tires, and a million other things give the bikes their character.  You can't change those things.  Besides, GP bikes are such fickle machines and are so infinitely adjustable that the last thing anyone wants to do is "dramatically" alter anything.  They'd spend the next two years chasing their tails trying to figure out how to get the bike sorted again.  Once teams get a baseline set-up for the bike (that matches the rider), then it's just tweaking.  A LOT of tweaking, a lot of super-sophisticated tweaking, but still just tweaking.  Dramatic changes are for when something is dramatically wrong.  Like with the Duc.   

[duccarlos]

Dramatic changes on the Duc have ranged from a whole new frame and swingarm to changes in the electronics to try to control the power output. The only thing they have not done is to start from scratch. But this is done during the offseason and on the lab bikes. Usually when they find something that works, they take it to one of the few test days they get with the factory riders. The riders the  decide if they will use anything new during the season. Also remember that the rules kinda limit the more drastic changes, since those most likely force them to use up one of the 5 engines allocated for the season. I haven't been watching MotoGP as long as some of the guys here, but if you watch racing weekends on any of the European coverage, you should be able to catch up relatively quickly.

[1.21GW]

..but if you watch racing weekends on any of the European coverage, you should be able to catch up relatively quickly.

By "European coverage" do you mean MotoGP.com subscription or some other channel?  I don't hate Speed coverage, but I'm not thrilled with it either.  I imagine any coverage of practice rounds would talk more tech, so I guess I'll try to DVR some of that.

 

[duccarlos]

Eurosports or MotoGP.com are good examples. These are available to download for free if you know where to look.

[gm2]

one thing not mentioned is that the M1 is an inline-4 and the RC213v is a.. V.  this makes for power delivery characteristics that you can't change.  settled in the corner vs grunt, basically.

re Marquez, elbow dragging really isn't all that new.  Hopkins was doing it all the time years ago.  many others on the grid do it today.  stoner was all over the side of the bike everywhere, just trying to keep the bike stood up as much as possible; i'm sure if he had a slightly different style his elbow would have been down a lot also.

what makes MM unique is he does it in damn near every corner and he's found a way to get maximum lean everywhere without sacrificing speed or control.  watch the last few laps of jerez again.  the kid is amazing.

and while aprilia has won a couple times lately (by building a race bike, then putting some lights and mirrors on it.  and by going through a huge number of engines per year), and wsbk was the ducati cup for quite a while during the time that the japanese OEMs were less concentrated on the series.. and ducati would sell an R racer to anyone.. and twin vs 4 power wasn't so distinct.. and bayliss was there.. other than all that, suzuki, honda, and yamaha have all won 1 or more wsbk titles in the last 10 years or so.  when kawi left MotoGP they literally sent that entire staff to wsbk.  that's why they missed the title by half a point last year.
 

[Speeddog]

~~~SNIP~~~

and while aprilia has won a couple times lately (by building a race bike, then putting some lights and mirrors on it.  and by going through a huge number of engines per year)

~~~SNIP~~~

Historical note, Aprilia merely took a page out of the Honda RC30 Manual. 

[1.21GW]

re Marquez, elbow dragging really isn't all that new.  Hopkins was doing it all the time years ago.  many others on the grid do it today.  stoner was all over the side of the bike everywhere, just trying to keep the bike stood up as much as possible; i'm sure if he had a slightly different style his elbow would have been down a lot also.

Yeah, I figured it wasn't new, but I did see some slow-mo on the Speed coverage of Austin(?) where Pedroso and MM were going around a corner and MM (w/ elbow+knee touching) clearly had the bike more upright.  It was a nice visual comparison.

[1.21GW]

Okay, watched Le Mans yesterday.  I was surprised how much the tires got ripped up in wet conditions.  But my question for the week has nothing to do with that.



Why the leg hanging off during corner braking?  Searched DMF but couldn't find discussion of it.  My gut is that it makes things less stable.  Clearly, I'm wrong.

[yeah, i know the picture is not from LM or even this season.]

[derby]

Okay, watched Le Mans yesterday.  I was surprised how much the tires got ripped up in wet conditions.  But my question for the week has nothing to do with that.

wet tires in drying conditions take a beating because they get too hot.

Why the leg hanging off during corner braking?  Searched DMF but couldn't find discussion of it.  My gut is that it makes things less stable.  Clearly, I'm wrong.

riders seem to think they have "more feel" under heavy braking.