Oil, lots of oil, in my airbox (Now I know why)

[clubhousemotorsports]

What was rebuilt at the 90000km build?

The pistons may have been good at 90000, I still question the undersides of the pistons . They look like a old style 750 race motor I pulled apart a few years ago and that motor had no piston jets, same overheated pistons and rod small end. Yes you are the test pilot most wish we could be. With that kind of mileage you need sponsorship.


I am with you on the build vs repairs. last year I cracked my 750 cases and found the crack the day before a 2 day track event .

Nothing lasts forever, built or stock. Often times the aftermarket parts are the first to break due to many factors. lighter parts often are not stronger than the heavy parts they replace, they may be as strong but often not stronger. we all want race parts on our bikes because... well they are fun. Race parts are often supposed to be replaced much more often than standard parts. The parts sales guy is often not your friend when he shows you the latest superlight ti rods, that should be rebuilt at 20,000-25000 km oh and use 4 $200 rod bolts to do so.

Some of us will never learn to keep a motor stock as it is just not in our DNA, hard to put a price on the smile when your creation is just so much fun to ride.

[stopintime]

What was rebuilt at the 90000km build?

Replaced the cases, cylinders and heads. Bearings, shims, valve guides, gaskets and other small parts.

........I still question the undersides of the pistons .

As do I, but if it's about lack of oil spray because of blockage... is it likely both pistons would miss it?

........ hard to put a price on the smile when your creation is just so much fun to ride.

Not hard to quote the price - I have all the receipts, but I won't discourage other engine tuners or spoil an otherwise perfect weekend for anyone.

[clubhousemotorsports]

I would check with the builder about the underside of the pistons then because if the pistons were cooked at that time they should have caught it. The motor certainly was apart enough.

With the new cases you might have started the oil problem. I would look to make sure all passages and oil flow was the same between the parts. If the oil was not being pumped to the jets then it would explain both pistons over heating. I wonder if there was a compatibility issue with the parts assembled. Say the red bolt not correct for the year cases used, should you have had the pressure relief in the cases for the year cases used or in the pump body as the 800 uses.

Either way something was not feeding oil to the jets, it may have been blockage somewhere that feeds both jets (and possibly more) or it could be the cases flow oil differently on these cases then the 800 cases you started with and the oil pressure simply was not there.

Still not 100% this was the cause of the crack but it certainly did not help anything by running that hot. couple that with the high Km and you know thee rest. big thing will be seeing if the pump is feeding those jets properly and if they flow as they should. Then it will be a matter of going over everything to make sure there is nothing else damaged.

[stopintime]

..............

Still not 100% this was the cause of the crack but it certainly did not help anything by running that hot. couple that with the high Km and you know thee rest. big thing will be seeing if the pump is feeding those jets properly and if they flow as they should. Then it will be a matter of going over everything to make sure there is nothing else damaged.

How is such a test performed?

[clubhousemotorsports]

Pressurize the oil feeds at about 50psi (real pressure will be between 30psi @hot idle and 100psi) and make sure you are getting a steady stream of air out the holes. If you can pressurize to the lower pressures it will show how much comes out at idle. I assume you are not at idle all that much so you are seeing higher pressures mostly.

If you are having a hard time seeing if anything is coming out squirt a little oil in there and (with safety glasses) see that it is pushed out when you feed the passageways. You may need to block other holes that also feed off of the same oil feed. This may be an area to look at as well. was there a lack of pressure because the oil found another passage to bleed out of?

[stopintime]

I'm not sure I get it....

Where should I pressurize?

Into the oil cooler ports will just blow into the cases - at least if it passes reverse through the pump and mesh filter?

Looking at the work shop manual the crank shaft ends seem logical, but I don't know if they are open.

Are the oil jets fed from the oil filter center through the main bearings?

Suggestions?

[clubhousemotorsports]

okay lets start with what year are the 750 cases?

Ducati has changed the cases from year to year so do not expect the oil paths to be the same. On the 2002 cases on my bench the oil travels up through the filter then  some is bled off to the right side main, the oil goes into a cavity around the outside of the main and then out the horizontal jet hole.

The oil from the filter also crosses the cases through a passageway that has an o-ring between the case halves. This passageway IS the hole the "red screw" is screwed into on the left side case half. Keep in mind the red screw is hollow with a jet hole in IT. Oil travels through the screw and then feeds the cavity around the left side main. This is where the oil jet for the Vertical gets its oil.

If there is low oil pressure from the pump you will not get much pressure squirting on either piston. If the oil pressure is low because there is no o-ring in the case, sealing the pump, wrong red screw, cases not drilled cases plugged around the mains you will not get oil jets.

I would start by pressurizing the oil feed where the oil filter screws on. Now you will have air blowing out everywhere because this is the main feed for the bike but you should feel some coming out the horizontal jet hole because it is so close. next I would blow through the red bolt hole while covering the filter feed to see if you can get air up through the vertical jet hole. You can reverse the direction with a rubber tipped air gun and see if the passages are clear you should have air blowing out the red screw hole on the vertical and the filter feed on the horizontal.


Now to throw a wrench in the works Ducati has changed the red screw feed more than once s there is no telling without looking at your cases if this is even the oil pathway. You simply will need to strip the cases and follow the oil path from the filter to find the passages for your cases you are using. The picture you have shows the oil jet being fed by the oil feed to the head while the cases I have here are NOT fed by that line, You need to look at the cases you have to see which ones you have. Mixing the cases,pumps,heads etc may have not had the oil path left for the jets , you simply need to investigate .

[stopintime]

I don't know the year of my current 750.
The work shop manual picture is from an '06 S2R800.
The oil jet seems to be at the same position.

From my pictures a page or two back, I see a pin hole by the main bearing - suggesting I have oil jets (?)
If the cases, cylinders and heads are from one engine (I was told they are) - what could be wrong with the passages, cavities or pathways? 'Only' the red bolt?

.....
I would start by pressurizing the oil feed where the oil filter screws on. Now you will have air blowing out everywhere because this is the main feed for the bike but you should feel some coming out the horizontal jet hole because it is so close. next I would blow through the red bolt hole while covering the filter feed to see if you can get air up through the vertical jet hole. You can reverse the direction with a rubber tipped air gun and see if the passages are clear you should have air blowing out the red screw hole on the vertical and the filter feed on the horizontal.

I almost manage to follow you this far, but tell me: is the 'red bolt' visible from the outside? Up in the oil filter location? Reversing air sounds easy enough.

[Speeddog]

I'll have pictures up in a little while showing the red bolt and stuff.

[BK_856er]

Vite rossa?

[koko64]

Fully subscribed .

[clubhousemotorsports]

Yes that is the infamous "red bolt"

Now from the late 90's to modern times the passage has changed and this is the concern of whether you have cases that are feeding those jets or not. You can pull the left side cover and see the red bolt as shown or at least see what is there on the cases you have.

If you give us the engine number on the left side case half we can possibly tell the year of your cases.  for instance my 620 cases are marked RA22******  most likely one of those 2's is the year of the engine 2002. These cases use the red screw and have the jets. The 750 cases are the same part number so the same in 2002. In 2003 the following year there is a different part number for the 620 and 800 cases so we know something changed in the 620 cases from 2002 to 2003, we just do not know what was changed it could be oil related or simply a color change of the cases.

[brad black]

i've seen the red bolts sitting down the bottom of the case cavity under the flywheel.  just sittin.

[MonsterHPD]

I've been into the "red bolt issue" a couple of times, and just the other day pal Henrik dug out thie info, based on the part number for the "red" bolt. Don't know how this will come out, but I'll give it a try ....
As you can see, no real logic to what bike got it first (seems like 750 Supersport was among the first...)

779.1.029.1A
THE PART NUMBER YOU ENTERED HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH AN UPDATED PART NUMBER
779.1.029.2A
Product Fitment/Applications:
Ducati Hypermotard 1100 S    2008, 2009
Ducati Hypermotard 1100 Standard    2008, 2009
Ducati MH900E    2002
Ducati Monster 1000    2004, 2005
Ducati Monster 1000 S    2003
Ducati Monster 620    2004
Ducati Monster 620 DARK    2006
Ducati Monster 620 DARK2DIS    2005
Ducati Monster 620 IE    2002
Ducati Monster 620 S    2003
Ducati Monster 620 SIE    2002
Ducati Monster 620 Standard    2003, 2005, 2006
Ducati Monster 695    2007, 2008
Ducati Monster 750    2001
Ducati Monster 750 IE    2002
Ducati Monster 800    2004
Ducati Monster 800 S    2003
Ducati Monster 900 IE    2002
Ducati Monster S2R 1000    2006, 2007, 2008
Ducati Monster S2R 800    2007
Ducati Monster S2R DARK    2005, 2006
Ducati Monster S2R Standard    2005, 2006
Ducati Monster S4    2001, 2002
Ducati Monster S4R    2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati Monster S4R TESTASTRETTA    2007, 2008
Ducati Monster S4RS TESTASTRETTA    2007, 2008
Ducati Multistrada 1000 DS    2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati Multistrada 1000 SDS    2005, 2006
Ducati Multistrada 1100 S    2007, 2008
Ducati Multistrada 1100 Standard    2007, 2008
Ducati Multistrada 620 DARK    2006
Ducati Multistrada 620 Standard    2006
Ducati SportClassic 1000 BIPOSTO    2007, 2008
Ducati SportClassic 1000 GT    2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
Ducati SportClassic 1000 GTTOURING    2009
Ducati SportClassic 1000 LE-PAULSMART    2006
Ducati SportClassic 1000 S    2007, 2008, 2009
Ducati SportClassic 1000 Standard    2006
Ducati SportTouring ST2    2003
Ducati SportTouring ST3    2005, 2006, 2007
Ducati SportTouring ST3S ABS    2006, 2007
Ducati SportTouring ST4    2002, 2003
Ducati SportTouring ST4S    2002
Ducati SportTouring ST4S ABS    2003, 2004, 2005
Ducati SportTouring ST4S Standard    2003, 2005
Ducati SuperBike 1098 R    2008, 2009
Ducati SuperBike 1098 RBAYLISS    2009
Ducati SuperBike 1098 S    2007, 2008
Ducati SuperBike 1098 Standard    2007, 2008
Ducati SuperBike 1098 STRICOLORE    2007
Ducati SuperBike 1198 RCORSE    2010
Ducati SuperBike 748 R    2002
Ducati SuperBike 748 S    2002
Ducati SuperBike 748 Standard    2002
Ducati SuperBike 749    2003
Ducati SuperBike 749 DARK    2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 749 R    2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 749 S    2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 749 Standard    2004, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 996 Standard    2001
Ducati SuperBike 998    2003
Ducati SuperBike 998 SBAYLISS    2002
Ducati SuperBike 998 SBOSTROM    2002
Ducati SuperBike 998 Standard    2002
Ducati SuperBike 999 R    2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 999 RXEROX    2006
Ducati SuperBike 999 S    2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 999 Standard    2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperSport 1000    2004
Ducati SuperSport 1000 DS    2005, 2006
Ducati SuperSport 620 S    2003
Ducati SuperSport 750 Sport    2001, 2002
Ducati SuperSport 750 Standard    2002
Ducati SuperSport 800    2004
Ducati SuperSport 800 S    2003
Ducati SuperSport 800 SS    2003
Ducati SuperSport 900 Sport    2002
Ducati SuperSport 900 Standard    2002

[stopintime]

From today:

Castings on cases say 98 with eleven dots - assume cases were made Nov '98 - don't know for which model year.

Red Bolt in place. Not blocked. Hole in the end and ~10mm from the head.

No oil jet for horizontal piston.

Vertical rod small end has surface chips.
(can rods be replaced without splitting cases?)

Base gasket hole might be too large - letting the O-ring slide/crumble into the opening. OR too narrow - not letting the O-ring sit securely between case and cylinder. Maybe grooves in the case and the base gasket?

Test 1
Air into oil filter intake, with plugged red bolt hole = air out vertical jet and out the hole to head (can't remember for sure, but I think also to the horizontal head)

Test 2
Air into Red Bolt hole, with plugged filter intake = air out vertical jet and out the hole to both heads.

Test 3
Air into oil pressure sensor hole = air out vertical jet and out one or two holes to heads.

(the whole album is here  http://s329.photobucket.com/user/stopintime/library/Damages%20current%20engine )

Castings on cases, cases made in 98 (?)



Horizontal, no oil jet



Red Bolt



Must find solution for O-ring



Chipped surface on rod small end



Vertical valves



Horizontal valves