the "huh?" defense

[Sinister]

something sneaky is going on.

Interesting, bobspapa.  I would suspect Sharpton or The J-man, but they usually are very high-profile.

[erkishhorde]

Random interesting side note (to me): the DA is a Gong. I hear their family has a lotta power out in those parts.

More on topic, how the hell does being an idiot protect you from punishment for something you did? It's one of those ideas where you say, "It's so stupid it just might work." 

[Scottish]

Random interesting side note (to me): the DA is a Gong. I hear their family has a lotta power out in those parts.

More on topic, how the hell does being an idiot protect you from punishment for something you did? It's one of those ideas where you say, "It's so stupid it just might work." 

Scary that "Idiocracy" is happening before our very eyes. 

[Sinister]

Scary that "Idiocracy" is happening before our very eyes. 

I haven't seen that movie.  Is it worth it?

[Scottish]

It's a dumb movie about being dumb..... depends on your humor. I was mildly amused at points, others just depressed.

[SacDuc]

I don't like the off the cuff backlash remarks in vein of "get a rope!" It seems to miss the point. Much like presuming the policy of locking up all nonviolent drug offenders will somehow eliminate the market for elicit drugs. I don't want to veer into political territory here, but when it comes to solving societal ills in a humane and equitable manner, well that is what political institutions are supposed to be for.

I don't have a solution to the mindless violence like this. I wish I did. If you are a psycho and you kill people, well society will always have people like you. We just have to hope that we catch you before you do too much damage then inflict a punishment that keeps you from doing more. But the folks in this story were at some point capable of leading different lives. They could have been productive, happy and non-violent. Where did that get lost? Where did they make the wrong decision? It is probably the case that only they can know for sure.

But maybe they don't even know. Perhaps they can't think critcally enough about the choices they make in life to realizes the consequences their actions have on themselves, others around them and society at large. But I believe that critical thinking can be taught. Sure there are idiots that simply can not learn, but I believe that is a tiny minority. Going a step deeper in to this one facet of the problem, I think the reason critcal thinking skills are not taught more (as well as not not sought out by students more) is that there is this creeping epidemic of anti-intellectualism now.

If you are smart you are worse than just a geek or a nerd. You are a sell-out, you are an elitist, you are "acting white," you are "gettin' above your raisin'" you are snob. All of this for actively persuing teh very type of critical thinking skills that can let you realize, "hey, this dude ain't shit to me and there is no up side to repeatedly kicking him in the head. I'm going to walk away from this one." Like I said, I don't have a solution to this problem, but I beleive that more education, better education and halting the popular demonizing of the educated (as well as stopping the glorification of the stupid in its many forms) is a place to start. But how you even start that process boggles me. Getting educated takes effort. How do you get people to make that effort?

So after all that I leave you with a good bit from Bill Hick's on the anti-intellectualism here in the US (some NSFW language)





sac


/wishes he would have put more effort into getting educated

[Sinister]

...but when it comes to solving societal ills in a humane and equitable manner...

This is where you went horribly wrong, and exactly where you lost me.  Who said anything about "solving societal ills" humanely or equitably (whatever that is supposed to mean)?  If that's your goal, you've already lost the war Sahib.  You can work towards solving societal ills all you want, but at some point you've got to point the .30-.30 at the fox who is killing your chickens and take him out.

[SacDuc]

This is where you went horribly wrong, and exactly where you lost me.  Who said anything about "solving societal ills" humanely or equitably (whatever that is supposed to mean)?  If that's your goal, you've already lost the war Sahib.  You can work towards solving societal ills all you want, but at some point you've got to point the .30-.30 at the fox who is killing your chickens and take him out.

Yes you do. If the fox is killing your chickens, kill the fox. Easy. Would you agree that there some problems that are not so black and white? Is there a way to get the other foxes fed that doesn't kill the chickens? Maybe then the fox can keep killing the mice that eat the grain that you feed the chickens. Yeah, I've over extended the analogy, but the point is that some situations get tricky quickly. No? Not all problems can (or should) be solved by shooting some one. In fact, some problems may be able to be solved or lessened before that becomes necessary. Do those statements sound plausible to you?

What I meant by "humanely and equitably" is that the trick is to find the appropriate punishment (the one that makes society safer/better) but not do it in such a way that is irrevicable in case the Government makes a mistake (I know, they do that so rarely). But, yeah, when during the trial against the pedophile six victims surface, shoot the fox.

And, did you really stop reading before the end of the first paragraph? If so I have to thank you for illustrating one of my points.

[Sinister]

I'm an engineer, it's all black and white (to my wife's chagrin )

In this case, it's time to draw from the scabbard.

[SacDuc]

I'm an engineer, it's all black and white (to my wife's chagrin )

In this case, it's time to draw from the scabbard.

Agreed. I guess I was just wondering about how this type of thing could be made to happen less in this country. Deterring people is one part to be sure. I was just trying to say that teaching crtical thinking may be another part of the puzzle. Maybe start a discussion on how to effectively do that. Seems more productive than to simply chamber an internet round.

sac

[Sinister]

...teaching crtical thinking may be another part of the puzzle

And, what 'critical thinking' methodologies would be necessary to make the decision to NOT bash in the skull of an 81-year-old man?  Hmmm?

[SacDuc]

And, what 'critical thinking' methodologies would be necessary to make the decision to NOT bash in the skull of an 81-year-old man?  Hmmm?

I don't know. But I know that somewhere along the line you and I learned it. So the methode is out there somewhere, isn't it? Or were we smiled upon in the womb?

sac

[Sinister]

I don't know. But I know that somewhere along the line you and I learned it. So the methode is out there somewhere, isn't it? Or were we smiled upon in the womb?

sac

It's called 'mommy and daddy giving a shit.'  That's the method.  It can't be taught.  I remember, back in the day, parents were held responsible for the actions/crimes/etc of their minor children.  Somewhere this got lost.  We should find it again.

[SacDuc]

It's called 'mommy and daddy giving a shit.'  That's the method.  It can't be taught.  I remember, back in the day, parents were held responsible for the actions/crimes/etc of their minor children.  Somewhere this got lost.  We should find it again.

Really? Are you saying parenting skills can't be taught? "Giving a shit" can't be taught, but I would guess most parents (even exceptionally bad ones) would tell you that they love their kids. They just suck at being parents (probably because their parents sucked at being parents). So that raises an interesting question: how do you teach parenting skills and motivate bad parents to become better ones. Note that this is "utopia" type thinking. This doesn't presume that any or all methodologies will work for the whole population. But I think everyone realizes that there is room for improvement.

How far back do we have to go to find parents responsible for the actions of their children. I did a bunch of stupid stuff as a kid and neither of my parents were locked up or given fines. Did this pertain to both parents? Or just the one caring for the child? And when did this change? Who passed the legislation? Was this on the federal level or did it creep across the country city by city.

sac

[Betty Rage]

I'm very young, and also not quite a parent yet, so this is coming completely from my obeservations of parents around me and stories like this.

It seems like education should always be a solution to be tried, because I think wisdom above all makes for a better society.

However.

You can try to educate all the bad parents in the world as much as you can, and some will still not care enough to apply it. For example, kids in high school are provided education for 7-8 hours a day, but when tested on that knowledge, many of them flunk. The reason why is usually because they don't give a shit. (learning disablilities and others aside...) So if a parent truly doesn't give a shit about raising their children correctly, or to be contributing members of society, they are going to leave that education behind and continue reproducing children who beat the shit out of 80 year old men. A lot of parents may take to the knowledge and end up becoming good parents after all, but I'm sure a lot of them wont.

Another example is one I saw the other week. We were driving and I happened to see a woman driving in the lane next to us, small child in the front seat and two babies in car seats in the back. The woman was smoking, with all the windows rolled up, basically hot boxing her children inside. Does she know the ramnifications of secondhand smoke around babies? I'm sure she does. It's kind of hard not to these days. Does she give a rats ass? Nope. Apparently, her need to satisfy her addiction overrides her childrens' needs to breath fresh air. It's these kind of parents that give me no hope for the future, I fear that it will only get worse. This woman has been educated, she knows the risks, but she doesn't care.

Again, this is not based on any extensive wordly knowledge, or my own skills as a parent, and in no way superceeds anything anyone has said here. It's simply what I have observed.