Friend went down in the twisties yesterday

[MetalDuc]

I am going to walk the line here and chime in some where between M(*)nster  and the others. While I would not say it is your fault that the guy went down I do think you owe some minimum level of responsibility to a new rider like that.

It probably shouldn't have been your responsibility as it was a friend's friend but given that you left it to him to lead and he was setting a pace you both realized was faster than the noob could handle and you were by default left to care for the new guy. From what it sounds like you were concerned and that was a start. After that you should have told your friend to slow down and baby sit the noob or realized that you had to be the guy to step up.

Again I repeat it is not your fault as you were not riding the guy's bike for him and accidents do happen. It is not a matter of if you will crash but when. That being said IMO the conditions/rules of the ride to be implemented by the experienced riders are as follows given the circumstances.

1. The rider is new to riding with an unknown skill level. Keep the rider in your mirrors or with in a couple of seconds of being in them at all times (or ride sweep staying back far enough for them not to feel pressure). It seems the post that this person only had the most basic skill set. Obviously you can evaluate this as the ride progresses. Maybe the rider grew up on dirt bikes and is new to street bikes so the gap can grow. But if it turns out they are 2 days out of MSF with no other time on a bike you need to keep them in your mirrors even if the pace is picking up as new riders make all sorts of mistakes.

2. It was the rider's first time in the canyons. The roads are not known and the type of ride is entirely different than city riding. First time to the canyons riders don't have a concept of the corners as city riding usually involves brief 90deg turns or very very mild curves. Sweepers, hairpins, esses, uphill and down hill corners are all very unique the first time you experience them. Given this you need to be a guide for a rider on a new road. Particularly a new rider. Let them see you go around the corner. If you know there is a tendency for debris or an unexpected sharpness to a corner let them see your brake lights prior to going into the corner even if you don't need the brakes. This lets them know that maybe there is more to the corner than it seems since the experienced rider has to put on the brakes.

A new rider also needs to see the lines you are taking. Motorcycles and cars are quite different when it comes to lines and the canyons even if they quite an accomplished driver. The car uses the whole lane where a motorcycle basically has 3 lanes to choose from, left tire track, right tire track and in between where the sand and rocks tend to accumulate as the car tires push it there. A new rider trying to ride race apexes is going to cross that hazard right in the middle of their corner. Not good. As the experienced rider you should show the noob the outside line around all the corners until they build a proficiency in the canyons. This keeps their pace slower and them off of the yellow on lefts and off the wall/debris on rights.

I firmly believe that in the case of the 1st condition given a brand new rider the rule is you should always keep them in sight. Condition 2 offers more flexibility. If you know the person you are riding with is experienced but new to the road you should still let them know when things are out of the ordinary like slowing down more than needed prior to a particular tricky corner but other than that let them ride as they see fit.

While it may not be your fault that a rider you are riding with goes down we should look out for one another. If there is no clear leader in the group with new riders or first time to a road step up and take care of those who may not understand the situation. We all understand there are risks and crashing is bound to happen but there is no reason we as a community we should say that all responsibilities belong solely to the individual and the group has none.

[gm2]

all of that ^^ is appropriate.  i also think that if you're adult enough to throw a leg over a bike, you've just taken the whole situation into your own hands.  people get in over their heads in all kinds of circumstances*; it's up to you as to whether you realize this and slow way down or you don't.  we all look out for other riders and i would feel bad for the guy too, but it's definitely not the fault of the OP.  there's feeling a responsibility and there's fault.  very different things.

my first time in any SoCal canyon.. really any canyon at all.. was a group ride that went up PCH, took a right on Latigo, and went screaming over to Mulholland.  there were several moments i thought i was going to die.  then i went and got some training.

* we shouldn't be in those canyons, at all, ever.  go to the track.

[sqweak]

while metalduc's opinion is sound (and certainly less inflammatory than m(*)nster's ), I think it's more fit for an organized group ride than this situation.  "Ride your own ride" goes both ways, he needs to ride as slow as he needs to be to be comfortable and you should be able to ride your own pace without being burdened by them.  It sounds like you guys were low pressure and accommodated him by being patient and waiting.  The type of instruction metal refers to is best left to a group ride where somewhere volunteers to provide that service to the noobs, or to schools like MSF ERC or the numerous track schools.

IMO your responsibility to a stranger tagging along on a (small) ride ends at not endangering them with your riding (passing them, pressuring them, etc).  You went above that in trying to communicate and watch out for him, but it certainly wasn't your burden to babysit them.  It's a stand-up thing that you're concerned, but as gm2 just echoed, that's a responsible thing and not fault thing.

[derby]

there is a reason i don't carry my rescue diver cert card with me when i go diving: i don't want people on the boat to assume that i'm going to take responsibility for less experienced divers.

i'll help people out with their skills, and obviously assist if a rescue is needed, but it's not the reason i go diving.

[hyphen]

thanks for all the input guys.  i feel a little bad about not making time to visit him in the hospital so i decided to buy his picture off of paul (capfacsurf) that was taken by the rock store earlier that day.  he was nice enough to cut me a discount on the pic after i told him about the incident. so, i think i'll print it out and attach it to a card.  kinda weird since i hardly know the guy. 

[sbrguy]

the newbie went down that is not your fault, in that he did not have teh skills or the prudence to take it slower.  what he should have been saying is "i'm going at my own pace and if i go really so and you guys ditch me so be it, i dont' care"  that is what he should have done.  and if the road seemed too advanced for him the friend was the one that should have said "yo this place is too much for you, take it really easy or meet up at this other road in 10 minutes."  if you thought the road was too tough then you could have said dude this is too tough for you.

now from a different perspective, if you do have a group ride i think someone has to tell newbies the "rules" of the ride, and if the friend didn't and you are "leader" then its up to you to say, "yo you got the message right".  its good that you guys waited up and such so that shows you were doing the right thing.

i would say don't lose any sleep over it.  if nothing else what you have to do next time is that you have learned you hav to make sure that beginnong of the ride to really ask/tell the person the dificulty of the roads and just to take it easy and relax. 

[SteveG]

Speaking from the position of someone who once fell while blindly chasing another rider through a turn, I don't (and never did) hold the incident against him in the slightest. It was just dumb blind faith in the notion that if he could go through the turn at that speed, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to. Never mind he was called 'Crazy Dave.' Chalk it up as a (painful) learning experience.

Years later unfortunately I got a to see the other side of the coin when a new rider tried to chase me down mulholland at the rockstore, an endeavor that landed him a healthy helping of guardrail. His idea of riding cloths were jeans, a down jacket, and gardening gloves. Ouch... I felt bad, but having already been there myself, and having warned him earlier in the day that he appeared to be a little over his head I didn't really loose much sleep over it. It doesn't sound like there's any reason for you to either.

[madmatt]

Totally your fault. Stop riding.

[Grampa]

not to self.... never go diving with Derby   

[madmatt]

not to self.... never go diving with Derby   

yeah, don't burden him by dying - he left his card at home.   

[derby]

not to self.... never go diving with Derby   

yeah, don't burden him by dying - he left his card at home.  

i didn't say i wouldn't help. hell, i'd even babysit a friend if they went diving with me.

what i don't want is some divemaster buddying me up with a complete noob that needs to be handheld just because i'm a more qualified diver (and disregarding the affect it may have on my enjoyment of the dive).

[Grampa]

derby.... selfish asshat dick diver 


it's all "open water" when derbys in the pool




 


but then agan.... I tried to keep have'n a trunk info quiet from Luca.

[M(*)nster]

For the record, I was NOT trying to be inflammatory.  So, quit painting that picture.  Why don't you stand in front of the mirror and roll your eyes at yourself.

[sqweak]

I didn't paint you as anything.  You disclaimed in your own post that you weren't "trying to be a dick", which is pretty much saying "I know I'm being inflammatory but..."

We differ in opinion on the OP's fault in the matter, I'm not a fan of the way your worded things, and all I did was say as much.  It's nothing personal, get the chip off your shoulder.

[gm2]

Totally your fault. Stop riding.

so wrong.  but funny as hell.