UPDATE - LEGENDARY ALUMINUM TANK REVIEW/EXPERIENCE

[Speeddog]

Invitation to come here and comment in the thread has been extended to Legendary.

They're in Florida, so not likely any response today.

[koko64]

 

[booger]

I'm going to have to recant on my earlier post, these alu tanks are a nice try but the details are not being addressed obviously. At this point I think the best thing to do is to stick with OE. The "plastic nightmare" is not as bad as people make it out to be; according to Ducatiz the resident plastic tank swelling expert and lawyer, the swelled out tanks will return to normal size once drained, cleaned, and left to dry & air out for about 6 to 9 months. Then they can be Caswelled and no more issues.

I like the weight savings and all, but the fitment is off and using fuel hose inside a fuel tank that isn't rated for constant immersion in fuel is irresponsible and indicative of an idea that just hasn't been thought through. These guys are almost there but almost isn't good enough. They need to listen to us on this, but from what I've read in this thread I have my doubts as to their sincerity in doing so.

They say they've done "hundreds" of these tanks; that is a lie. If so they have done "hundreds" of these tanks totally wrong. I think since the prices are similar, I'd rather another OE Ducati fuel cell if it got to the point where I absolutely had to replace it. But as stated, the tanks can be returned to original shape and dimension by merely drying them out, so it appears there is no need to absolutely replace them at all. Even a crashed & rashed one can be repainted to original finish.

[chipripper]

Speeddog,

I replied to your PM with some info, I wasn't sure was appropriate to put in this thread. I'll let you adjudicate that.

I think there are a couple specific items that are not what was represented originally. For me the most important are the threaded holes going through on the fuel flange and the rubber bumper mounts. These should have been closed end blind nuts. I'm looking into some solutions (closed end rivet nuts / blind nuts / etc) that could be installed prior to a tank seal.

The fit and finish on mine seems to be a little better than the one in this thread. A few passes with sandpaper got the hinge mount to fit the mounting bracket smoothly, and there is some minor out-of-roundness at the gas cap opening that will sand out easy enough. These are the kind of little things I expect and accept out of a hand made piece, of a certain price. I'll likely keep working mine as a project, but I wouldn't recommend legendary to anyone else unless they fix the obvious issues. It's a shame, because Dave has a good rep in the classic community. It seems he just didn't put the same craftsmanship into the Duc tanks.

[uglyducky]

Then they can be Caswelled and no more issues.

unfortunately this is not the case, even caswell lined tanks are prone to expansion again. it's happened to me twice

[ducpainter]

unfortunately this is not the case, even caswell lined tanks are prone to expansion again. it's happened to me twice

Who lined the tanks?

[booger]

unfortunately this is not the case, even caswell lined tanks are prone to expansion again. it's happened to me twice

If done fastidiously and properly, it won't fail. Perennial problem with lining gas tanks. Preparation is critical, it's like 95% of the process. I took two months to get it done with mine, making sure I had prepped it and double prepped it. No problems at all so far. What happened to you was delamination of the coating in a nook or cranny that didn't get prepped or coated properly, or both.

Even still, just let it dry & shrink back, & coat it again Jack...

[koko64]

I'm interested in the response from the mfr. It's a shame, there's a huge amount of work in each tank so they must be done right as a hand made piece. It's so labour intensive that the siuation has to be remedied or else bad examples of a skilled craftsman's work will circulate. Then there's the internet...
I'm in awe of and envious of those with the skill who can do this kind of work. If I crafted this tank I'd be all over this and rectify the situation asap. Surely the tank can be returned for the part to be completed correctly and all issues rectified at the mfr's expense?

[Heath]

Damn I really wanted one of those eventually. I wonder if the Japanese Beater tanks are any different. Having an alum tank and tail cover painted with some exposed brushed alum would be sexy as hell.

...So how bout them Kevlar tanks lol

[booger]

I wonder if the Japanese Beater tanks are any different.

I think it's safe to say Japanese craftsmanship in this instance would be much better than anything from Legendary. They started making the aluminum tanks to begin with, then Legendary decided they were going to do the same. As it often happens, the also-rans don't end up being as good. Then there is the Japanese tendency to be quality-obsessed. At this point I'd gamble on a Japanese aluminum tank before I'd gamble on a Legendary. You'll pay for that quality though, over and above both OE and Legendary prices.

[Legendarycheryl]

Sorry for the late reply as I have been extremely busy. I would like to clear up some misconceptions about composite tanks and the other questions brought forth about them and the aluminum tanks in general.
 I'd like to start by addressing this in a sort of historical or chronological order to help everyone understand how we got here and what we are doing now and in the future moving forward.
First I would like to introduce myself as a motorcycle enthusiast who was brought up in a motorcycle family from the mid 1960's. My father owned a sheetmetal and heating business where my grandfather was metalsmith who learned his trade in the "old country". I learned by watching gramps smith copper bowls, vases fireplace hoods basins etc. My motorcycle awakening was when the local Schwinn shop started importing the Honda 50 cub. It was analogous as the Beatles British music Invasion.
 As time went on my interests shifted to bikes in general and I was eventually sent to Honda Service Training at age 16 the same year Dick Mann won at Daytona. My instructor was the head team mechanic.
 Fast forward to late 1990's -2000's, I owned a large business fabricating composite Architectural elements that shipped product worldwide. Our success was based on our products being "on budget, on time" and our impeccable customer service headed by my wife over the last 35+ years.
 Now semi retired after wrapping up my big factory we've moved to a smaller facility.
I contract specialty composite parts for theme parks, and enjoy hand fabricating historically significant motorcycle parts. I have a metal shop including lathe and CNC mill, and a casting department whereas my latest acquisition of 3-d printing technology enables us to replicate about any part for any bike. We have a very small close team of people here, all very good at what they do.
 Digressing to my composite experiences, we fabricated glassfiber parts and gas tanks since 2007. I searched the entire world for resin that would withstand (The then new) issues with ethanol fuel corrosion. I tried and tested all forms of resins, from phenolic, non phenol (epoxies), styrene, vinyl ester and hybrids. I further contacted rotomolding companies with various thermoplastic solutions for testing and evaluation. After absorption testing we settled on a resin from a German chemical company and worked with them to find the best solution for long term fuel storage. The conclusion was as it remains...there is no resin that will permanently withstand the chemicals used in "pump gas" period!
Just a word to the wise; just because a composite tank on the market is "KEVLAR", it still has to have a plastic resin binder. The Kevlar (trade name) is a aramid fiber which basically takes the place of glass fibers, doesn't make it any more resilient to fuel corrosion than fiberglass. You basically now just have an overpriced tank that is prone to failure. Do you not think Ducati tried to crack that after product failure revealed itself?
Kevlar tanks are overpriced unicorns...
 Our attention was to immediately turn our fuel cell products solely  to aluminum for a truly permanent solution.
 That said, if there was any possible way to avoid the long laborious task of shaping, machining billet parts and hundreds of inches of welding, I would be molding gas tanks, not handmaking them one at a time. A fellow with a Ducati repair garage does not make a solid expert opinion on composite or aluminum fuel cell construction standards.
 There has been speculation of poor quality and workmanship issues with Legendary tanks...we have many of these out there in the hands of very happy customers and have one unhappy customer that his mechanic evidently talked him into a Kevlar resin tank.
The mechanic showed photos of lack of blind holes in two locations. The pump flange and fuel cap well as if we perpetrated an unacceptable method or standard. All other metal manufacturered tanks on showroom floors all over the world are designed and built like that. It's the "standard" and we supply an aerospace quality fuel sealant to use on those screw threads as opposed to a composite tank where that's the method you have to use.
 Unfortunately it's been put forth in a way that implies we did something underhanded.
We also had a group of 3 tanks that were inadvertently fabricated with the S2R panels which interfered with fuel pump assembly. These tanks were shipped back at our expense and repaired immediately. The hose which had spec'd as immersible came in as non on a tank and customer service offered, again to have the tank returned on our dime for refitting.
 If anyone cares to look over the description, it states these are "painters" made to be refinished (not buffed shiny). Before leaving the shop they get a Smoothing with a rotary sander where the panels are welded together. Those areas are not very photogenic but I guarantee they are flat, smooth and ready for your basic body shop paint primer as the first step in the paint process. We're very proud of the smoothness before it gets to the customer.
 In closing, these tanks were designed to outlast the bikes they're fitted on. There's a reason why others have tried and failed fabricating these in significant numbers.  The cost of building these are quite horrendous...however we keep striving for quality.
We have a bonafide licensed company. We carry over a million in product liability insurance and have been doing this a very long time. We have hundreds of very happy customers worldwide and often get personal phone calls from folks ecstatic about their product. 
We constantly strive for the most efficient methods of fabrication and have recently invested in an electric forge to make non-pourous castings. Future plans are to cast the hand fabrication and labor intensive welded areas of the tank bottoms so that we may keep the price down to the end user and continue fabrication in the future.
David and Cheryl Ashenbrener,
Legendary-Motorcycles.

[ducpainter]

Thanks for taking the time to come here and respond. I hope that everyone who responds to you does so in a respectful manner, because name calling and insults are not tolerated here...from anyone on either side of the discussion.

First...the 'fellow with the Ducati garage' who's opinion you're disparaging also happens to be a degreed engineer. You have no idea what his field of expertise may be. Nowhere in his comments did he say, or imply, he thought you were doing anything underhanded. He stated nothing can be done about the non submersion rated hose, and implied that the open fasteners are not his idea of the best.

Whether the fasteners need to be 'blind', or whether your 'aerospace quality sealant' is adequate, I can't say. I'm not an engineer, or chemist. Blind fasteners would certainly eliminate any question, in my mind.

That aside, what about the non fuel resistant hose on the tank interior? You neglected to address that point. That 30R7 hose is not intended for submersion in any fuel. When that hose deteriorates and the tank leaks, and from personal experience it will, what does your customer do?

That, IMO, is the only thing 'wrong' with your product. You've produced what you claim is a 'permanent solution' with an unsuitable, non servicable, component.

What say you?

[Legendarycheryl]

I’m sorry if I stepped on anybody’s toes here. I was only told “my mechanic” by the customer. He posted this and the pics before our customer had even communicated with us about the issues.
The customer was offered the option to have the tank returned to us, at our expense, to be refitted with the proper submersible lines.
Allow me to use this quote from my original reply concerning the lines.
“The hose which had spec'd as submersible came in as non on a tank and customer service offered, again to have the tank returned on our dime for refitting.“
If you go to our Website it clearly states that the holes are "Tapped" not Blind.
While it would be nice to have Blind nuts for fasteners the cost would be quite high. With all the resistance we have seen with regard to our price, we have not implemented that option yet. Perhaps we could offer it as an upgrade.
Please take this opportunity to tell us what is on your wish list as we continue to upgrade our products.

[ducpainter]

Dave...

You didn't step on anyone's toes. You had limited information, and I simply stated a fact of which you were not aware.

I was not made aware of the offer to replace the non submersible lines at your cost. If I missed it in your post here, I apologize. In my mind that changes things...a lot.

Everyone is always concerned with price. I was in business, and there is always a concern to be able to offer a product that is priced to the customers pocketbook and also allows the manufacturer/shop to maintain quality while making money. That's why you do it. Two out of three isn't good enough. I failed to make money. That said, if I was in the market for an item in the price range of your product, I don't think I would balk at an increase for blind fasteners unless it was a huge increase. We're likely talking ~50 ish dollars, or am I out of touch with reality?

If it were I making the tanks, I'd use blind fasteners period. I wouldn't do it any other way. Ethanol has proven to be a bane to the automotive world, and being a spray painter for many years I've seen many products that were supposed to work that didn't. I guess I don't trust a sealer manufacturer to be able to come up with a product resistant to fuel permanently while resin manufacturers couldn't. An aerospace manufacturer made the o-rings that failed on 'Challenger' after all.

Better living through chemistry...right?

While we're at it, what about the area in the tank interior that contacts the pump? Can that be remedied also?

[koko64]

The opinion of a humble Sole Trader.

Your customer's mechanic has to service and troubleshoot on the ground, so I appreciate his position. I think he was perplexed rather than disparaging.  Im sure this particular item is an anomoly and not a run of design flaws. It's a premium, hand made product so I don't understand a couple of things. For permanently enclosed tanks the internal lines could be alloy tubing (or other appropriate material) instead of rubber hose, or are there issues with vibration induced fractures? Rubber lines should not be used unless serviceable no matter what type (from the perspective of someone who works on bikes). Things go wrong and service access is everything.

This is a committed community and protective of its members interests, so please understand our vigilant responses. I understand that small business is difficult and niche' businesses more so.

Given the pride in your work and it's painstaking nature, I'm sure you would rectify these issues as you have offered and glad to see your response here.