Help setting ignition p/u bracket location/timing

[LowercaseJake]

Did you solder on the ignition boxes?

No but I have a professional quality crimp tool and I'm confident in the connections. So, flag type connector on the bigger male post and straight connector on the narrower of the 2, yes?

I also completely removed my flywheel to be absolutely sure the woodruff key lined up with the slot in the crankshaft. It does.

Except... I'm now waiting on a flat battery to recharge.

[LowercaseJake]

Ok so I easily found TDC except none of the dots on the FW are even close to the pickup centers. Shite.

[LowercaseJake]

Well now I've completed gone and make the beast with two backsed myself. During another rotation of the rear wheel, the center  cog that rides on the crank drifted off. Now TDC according to the timing belts isn't TDC anymore. Wonderful.

[ducpainter]

Pictures...

[LowercaseJake]

Well I have bigger issues now - the FW dots didn't line up anywhere near the triggers would reach so I pulled it to double check my work then carefully rotated the engine via the rear wheel.. I wasn't careful enough because the cog that rides on the back of the crank, that turns the big gear which turns the horizontal belt walked off the shaft and I fubared my engine timing. I've removed the belts to confirm all the valves close properly, which they do, but I can't turn the crank a full 360 degrees without running into interference. Pretty sure the self inflicted wounds I've caused have turned this job from moderately easy to way over my head. Time to go to the local dealer and hope they're honest and reasonable.

[greenmonster]

Bit hard to follow, these events.

1. Ign bracket was mounted by chance or what?
2. Was correct p-u leads to correct ign box when starting?
3. Was belts mounted correctly mounted?
4. " I've removed the belts to confirm all the valves close properly, which they do, but I can't turn the crank a full 360 degrees without running into interference." What do interfer?

If all was correcly mounted, except ign bracket, all that would happend during starting efforts would be
no start because of bad ign timing.

Walk us through what you did from the start of this project.

[LowercaseJake]

Bit hard to follow, these events.

1. Ign bracket was mounted by chance or what?
2. Was correct p-u leads to correct ign box when starting?
3. Was belts mounted correctly mounted?
4. " I've removed the belts to confirm all the valves close properly, which they do, but I can't turn the crank a full 360 degrees without running into interference." What do interfer?

If all was correcly mounted, except ign bracket, all that would happend during starting efforts would be
no start because of bad ign timing.

Walk us through what you did from the start of this project.

I wish I could post pics, but there's a small gear the rides at the very back of the crank literally up against the main bearing. This turns a larger cog which rotates the belts. That's the gear that I allowed to walk off its home. When I tried to put it back, I foolishly rotated the larger cog which turns to belts in order to get it back in. Afterwards, my primary timing belt cog went from lining up perfectly with the nub on the inner rubber belt cover and the dot on the cog to being off by 90 degrees or so... What I felt like was way too far off. At this point I removed the timing belts so I could carefully turn them by hand. The valve train spins freely a full 360 degrees before meeting heavy resistance, as do the pistons which will go a full revolution before meeting a wall of sorts. I believe this is piston to valve contact and don't trust myself enough to get it right.

As for the ignition p/u bracket - I found TDC (before I removed the belts) using a straw in the spark plug hole.. When the straw reached its highest point the dot on the timing gear also lined up properly. But I could not get the FW in a position where the dots could line up above each pickup, no matter how many times I R&R'd. Hence toting the crank one more time in the hopes "every other" revolution was the correct one...thst perhaps TDC at the compression stroke was different than the exhaust stroke... If that makes sense?

It's embarrassing but apparently I can't install a FW properly. And now my engine timing is obviously outta wack because I've been carefully rotating both the valve train and the crank. Since I really don't wanna brick my engine it's going to the dealer regardless, but I'd be very curious how to correct my F up. Right now my horizontal intake valve is closed, but the timing mark on the cog is exactly 90 degrees from the dot, exactly the opposite of how it's supposed to be, and it doesn't want to come to a rest at the dot.. It'll either spring up to 12 o'clock or down to 6 o'clock.

Obviously I'm lost here. I do have fresh belts, and if you folks think I could perhaps install them loosely and manually, carefully, turn the engine until it's timed right I'm willing to give that a shot. But I'm only maybe a 4.5/10 when it comes to mechanical aptitude. I can, however, follow instructions.

[LowercaseJake]

Picture 2 of 12, the big lightened gear. Upper LH corner. That's what I disturbed. Sorry I can't do better, I'm out of town at the moment..

[LowercaseJake]

If I were to install my new belts with all the dots correctly lined up, my forward cylinder should be automatically be at TDC - yes or no?

Basically this gear I keep referring to is officially known as the idler gear for the cam drive shaft. This small gear is what walked off the crsnk/layshaft while I was turning the engine. Unfortunately I wasn't able to immediately stop turning as soon as it walked off, and now the big timing gear is not where it's supposed to be. 

[LowercaseJake]

See number 12, apparently sold in pairs and aptly named "timing gears pair. The smaller of the 2 is what walked off the layshaft, which allowed the larger one to freewheel a bit.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/dq5IjMisw7olI1QB3


My thought is : reinstall the timing belts and set to their appropriate marks. Manually turn the larger timing gear until the dimples on the larger and smaller line up. Confirm the engine turns over a complete 360 degrees a good 4 times. Then reinstall the sprag, starter clutch gear, flywheel etc.

Another edit: this thread describes my "accident" almost precisely :

http://www.ducati.org/forums/1098-1198/64043-timing-gears-misaligned.html#/topics/64043?page=2

[ducpainter]

I think there must be a way to get the lower end all timed without using the upper belt pulleys as a reference.

Do you have a service manual?

[LowercaseJake]

I think there must be a way to get the lower end all timed without using the upper belt pulleys as a reference.

Do you have a service manual?

I was hoping for that as well, but I'm afraid the way the drive pulley is "spring loaded" that'd be impossible without a special tool. No I do not own a service manual, just the Haynes and Synder manuals. There are paperback 5 language versions on ebay for not *too* much.

[LowercaseJake]

Can I confirm you guys understand my dilemma without any further pics? Because anything else I can show you is my left  case half, with the layshaft stripped backwards to the main bearing... And the smaller drive pulley, flywheel, magneto sprag clutch etc strewn about my bench.

[LowercaseJake]

I accidentally linked to the 3rd page ;

http://www.ducati.org/forums/1098-1198/64043-timing-gears-misaligned.html#/topics/64043?page=2

Exactly my issue.

[LowercaseJake]

DP - I felt this deserved it's own thread.... Could you please delete the posts regarding timing gear misalignment here?