Really? Never took a physics class?

[sno_duc]

The most effective thing that could be done would be:

A: Getting off our collective fear of oil power and bringing in some decent European spec diesel powertrains

Something like this http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=219949 or http://www.autoblog.com/bloggers/john-neff/

Both would be a lot of fun to drive and get bettter than 50 mpg.

[Ducatiloo]

Getting more hp out of engine design X and gasoline Y  is about getting the engine to use the fuel more wisely. Getting more mileage out of it is strictly in terms of how much fuel you are using to get that kind of power. Most of it is lost due to fighting wind resistance and moving 5000lbs of car.

if your car is using a quart of gas every minute at 5000 revs, the only thing you can do to make it more efficent is to harness as much power as you can out of that quart of gas by having the engine make more hp with it. Thats why theres technology like lean burn engines. They purposely cut down on fuel and create a lean situation to increase mpg, or hybrid cars that stop the engine entirely and rely on an electric motor.

Have you seen that video? Toyota Prius vs BMW M3 (i think  it was an m3 atleast). with the toyota prius on a track and riding as hard as possible, the BMW M3 still got better mpg than the prius. HP doesnt dictate your MPG.

Rev. Millertime, sport hybrid suvs are getting popular. Ford Edge, Inifnit FX series, Lexus RX they are more aero than Tahoes and all that crap. and just casue i wanna say it, the Avalance is a PIECE OF SHIT that cant haul anything.

So why can't they make smaller more fuel efficient engine with the same HP as last year model?

[He Man]

So why can't they make smaller more fuel efficient engine with the same HP as last year model?

Because making a smaller engine requires new machines, new designs. $ to make new casts, engine needs to be tested again to pass emissions, thats why many cars share the same engine.

Example of some widely used american platforms...V6 3.8L,  V8 4.6L for all v8 lines (Ford Crown Victoria, Ford Mustang, Linclon Town Car, Mercury Maurader) V8 5.4Liter for the larger trucks.

A lot of lexus and toyota shares the same engine, as well as nissan/infinitis and honda/acura.

Smaller engines are getting more and more powerfull too, they just arent popular in larger cars. I think the 2.4L 4cylinder engine is a popular compact engine, but they only have enough power to move a small car. Yea you can shove a ford focus engine into a Ford explorer, but youll be stomping the gas pedal at everylight just to keep up with grandma. At that point the engine is running at such a high RPM, its burning a huge amount of fuel.

Dont forget, a lot of the fuel that gets injected into your engine does not fully combust. the slower the engine moves, the more time each combustion has to complete. As your engine RPM rises, you need to dump more and more gas into it each combustion just to keep up with your demand of the engine, meanwhile, less combustion is taking place.

now picture a 2.4L 4cyl at 7,000rpms and a v8 4.6L at 3500rpms. which one do you think is burning more gas if they were both in the same car?

Ever try to drive a 2.4L 4cyl wrangler? That thing is not aerodynamic, it isnt really heavy, or very light and has heavy wheels. It only gets about 16/21mpg. Same engine in a small subcompact could probably do 25/35.

[Kaveh]

my 4cly wrangler only got 12/15 mpg's when i had it.

[roy-nexus-6]

While US car companies are talking about it, Honda is doing it:

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

The bad boy is running on hydrogen? Bravo honda!

The thing I love about hydrogen is that it is available to EVERYONE. Sure, cracking it out is energy intensive... but if your energy is zero emissions, what does that matter.

Imagine if large cities in the US each had a hydrogen refinery, powered by either offshore turbines, possibly a tidal generator, or a badass inland solar thermal tower? Now THAT would be energy independence! 

[ducatiz]

a typical midsize diesel/electric hybrid SUV would get between 30 and 40 mpg.

Seems to me Detroit needs to think outside of the box and stop following Japanese companies.

It would be nice if the first diesel/electric hybrid on the road was a GM or Ford.

FlexFuel is such bullshit.  I can't believe they actually sold it.  Morons.

[mitt]

FlexFuel is such bullshit.  I can't believe they actually sold it.  Morons.

+1 - it is a 'make yourself feel good' type of energy management, not an actual solution.  It might even be worse for the planet than fossil fuels depending on whose data you believe.

mitt

[OwnyTony]

The bad boy is running on hydrogen? Bravo honda!

The thing I love about hydrogen is that it is available to EVERYONE. Sure, cracking it out is energy intensive... but if your energy is zero emissions, what does that matter.

Imagine if large cities in the US each had a hydrogen refinery, powered by either offshore turbines, possibly a tidal generator, or a badass inland solar thermal tower? Now THAT would be energy independence! 

What is bad about hydrogen (or any source of energy that is heavily reliant on water) is that water is limited.  other examples of energy that need water to produce would be bio diesel and nuclear energy.  One stat mentioned something like 20 something gallons of water is needed to produce one gallon of bio-diesel.   Nuclear power plants need a crap load of water to cool the reactors.

People have this notion that water is always going to be readily available.  You have to remember that humans have a tendency to over emphasize  the benefits and totally ignoring or not properly assessing the cost. 

[ducatiz]

+1 - it is a 'make yourself feel good' type of energy management, not an actual solution.  It might even be worse for the planet than fossil fuels depending on whose data you believe.

mitt

GM did that to increase their fleet MPG rating since it reduces the potential gasoline use.  Around me, E85 is about 50 cents/gal cheaper than regular, so people are using it.

From what I have read not only does it have worse effects on the environment, it also uses high-quality food crops.  There is something disgusting about using high-quality food crops to burn for a car when there are people starving in the world.

Diesel engines were originally designed running peanut oil.  The beauty of diesel is you can burn almost any oil imaginable, so you can make biodiesel from surplus crops (keeps cost low) and also use multiple sources (reduce waste) and you don't need high-quality food sources.

Two of the best biodiesel sources are soy and rape (canola for the PC types), both of which are super cheap and rape is not edible except for the oil.

Hypothetically, you can extract biodiesel from almost any source which produces oil:  pine trees, hemp, any nut, and so on. 

And the big advantage of biodiesel is that you produce CO2 that was extracted from the air, so as far as CO2 it is a zero-sum source.  (trees/plants use C02 to grow, and burning them releases it)

[sno_duc]

Here is an excellant thread on running diesels on alternative fuels.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=206587
The thing on the horizon that I'm excited about is bio-d from algae. We all know how fast algae can grow.

[TiAvenger]

The bad boy is running on hydrogen? Bravo honda!

The thing I love about hydrogen is that it is available to EVERYONE. Sure, cracking it out is energy intensive... but if your energy is zero emissions, what does that matter.

Imagine if large cities in the US each had a hydrogen refinery, powered by either offshore turbines, possibly a tidal generator, or a badass inland solar thermal tower? Now THAT would be energy independence! 

the problem is that that bad boy is only available for a 600+ dollar a month lease, only in LA, and would cost 1.5 million to buy, just for honda to break even.

to them, now they have to figure how to make the tech and infrastructure cheap

[Pakhan]

The other problem is that besides the expense of the car the issues of a possible exploding hydrogen tank and the tons of emissions from manufacturing hydrogen.  Also the eventual disposal of those batteries from each car.

I'm skeptical about hydrogen being our messiah until I see more numbers.

[mitt]

What is bad about hydrogen (or any source of energy that is heavily reliant on water) is that water is limited.  other examples of energy that need water to produce would be bio diesel and nuclear energy.  One stat mentioned something like 20 something gallons of water is needed to produce one gallon of bio-diesel.   Nuclear power plants need a crap load of water to cool the reactors.

I understand water is needed, but our planet is a closed loop system, the water that is converted to steam eventually returns as water.  I am worried about the pollutants and warming of the water, especially in fresh waters like our great lakes, but besides the Western US, water is abundant (especially this year    ).

mitt

[Ducatiloo]

Returns to water again, but is pretty useless at this time if it ends up in a body of salt water.

[B.Rock]

By 5.0 do you mean 5 Liter engines?

If so, you're off by just a little bit.

Just a little.