New Power Commander S4RS

[hypurone]

lol, this is getting confusing. This is what ive read. (and why there are no PCIIIs for S2R1000 and why M1000ies PCMs do not work)

PCIII is downstream but it goes like this


ECUMAP -> PCIII->Cylinders -> O2 Sensor says wtf mate, goes back to ECU and says no, something is modifying fuel map. Ignore signals.

when you unplug the O2 sensor it goes like

ECUMAP -> PCIII -ao39482904jsd scrambled. -> stock map.

Thats the whole issue with why DP is the only solution for O2'd bikes and only RB units can work with them.

Hmmm, dunno about that. There are a lot of guys running around with the O2 sensor disconnected and they say the bike runs great that way, except for the check engine light being on. The PCIII gets the last say in things before the signal is sent to the injectors. This should make whatever is happening upstream, irrelevant. It will take whatever signal the ECU spits out and change it according to what map it has in it for any given rpm/throttle position.

With the O2 sensor connected the two will definitely be fighting each other but the only result should be the killing of the O2 and cat due to the bike running richer. There may be an issue at idle as well cuz the stepper motor might have hard time holding the idle speed even, if the A/F is oscillating wildly...

All the more reason to put a full system on like I did! 

[Moronic]

The way I read the Power Commander info, the new unit for the 07-08 S4R(s) works on the stock ECU at greater than 5250rpm and/or 19pc throttle, and works on the DP ecu all the way thru.

I'm speculating that the stock ECU is closed-loop only below the above limits, and open-loop (but lean nevertheless) above.

If it is an "or" rather than "and", that would help explain why the surging on the stock ECU disappears once highway speeds are reached - 55mph in top gear is possibly about 20pc throttle, albeit well under 5250rpm.

Can't imagine why Dynojet would offer a unit for the S4Rs that couldn't tune the DP ecu over the full range - tho I'm not up on the legistlative situation in the States.

More obviously, if even the DP ecu was off-limits in this range, hard to see why they would say the PC won't work there "unless you have the DP ecu". Because it wouldn't matter what ECU you had.

Thanks for the comments about the DP unit running rich from the factory. Confirms my suspicions about the reported fuel consumption hit.

[vstryker]

anyone been able to get rid of the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT by putting in some sort of resistor? if so what kind and what is the resistance required?

also, if you buy the older M1000sie PC3, can you load any map? even the ones for the newer S4RS, or are they PC3 model specific maps?

[CDawg]

New info on PCIII and DP ECU:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=655.75

[He Man]

Hmmm, dunno about that. There are a lot of guys running around with the O2 sensor disconnected and they say the bike runs great that way, except for the check engine light being on. The PCIII gets the last say in things before the signal is sent to the injectors. This should make whatever is happening upstream, irrelevant. It will take whatever signal the ECU spits out and change it according to what map it has in it for any given rpm/throttle position.

With the O2 sensor connected the two will definitely be fighting each other but the only result should be the killing of the O2 and cat due to the bike running richer. There may be an issue at idle as well cuz the stepper motor might have hard time holding the idle speed even, if the A/F is oscillating wildly...

All the more reason to put a full system on like I did! 

I agree with yoru first statement about running with a disconnecte O2 sensor. The check engine light only comes on for 07+ bikes (ive ran mine disconnecte with no issues, i have an 06) Many people have tried a PCIII with the o2 disconnected and have had no success. Only a handful has been able to get it to work. I would be down for a PCIII right now, but theres no gaurentee it would work. Even with it installed, people still arent too satisfied.

[hypurone]

anyone been able to get rid of the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT by putting in some sort of resistor? if so what kind and what is the resistance required?

also, if you buy the older M1000sie PC3, can you load any map? even the ones for the newer S4RS, or are they PC3 model specific maps?

You can load any map that is for a PCIII usb of that variety. You won't get great results but it would work. All the map is is a table of values for RPM and Throttle position over the entire rev range and throttle opening range. You really wanna go the dyno route. 

[hypurone]

I agree with yoru first statement about running with a disconnecte O2 sensor. The check engine light only comes on for 07+ bikes (ive ran mine disconnecte with no issues, i have an 06) Many people have tried a PCIII with the o2 disconnected and have had no success. Only a handful has been able to get it to work. I would be down for a PCIII right now, but theres no gaurentee it would work. Even with it installed, people still arent too satisfied.

Is that with canned maps or dyno or both?

[SikDuc]

A little more info on new PC III  733-411 from Dynojet.  It is not necessary to buy the 717-411 because of the "locked" areas in the  new map.  The new map has no locked areas.  Also, the harness is shorter with the 717-411 and does not fit as well.  Dynojet is currently working on a Wideband 2 unit which has a narrow band O2 sensor manipulation which MAY spoof the stock sensor to keep the stock ECU happy for full map tuning, but at this time it is not yet confirmed.

In other words Dynojet is definitely working on it and someday will have it figured out

Lou

[He Man]

Is that with canned maps or dyno or both?

both. When dynoing the bike for a custom map, the ECU would erase all values for under a certain RPM. So some guy thought of rigging it to the throttle and it worked for some and not for others.

[vstryker]

A little more info on new PC III  733-411 from Dynojet.  It is not necessary to buy the 717-411 because of the "locked" areas in the  new map.  The new map has no locked areas.  Also, the harness is shorter with the 717-411 and does not fit as well.  Dynojet is currently working on a Wideband 2 unit which has a narrow band O2 sensor manipulation which MAY spoof the stock sensor to keep the stock ECU happy for full map tuning, but at this time it is not yet confirmed.

In other words Dynojet is definitely working on it and someday will have it figured out

Lou

are you 100% certain on this, that there are no "locked" areas on the newer 733-411? where are you getting this info from? i really want this to be true so i can tune my S4RS already.

[CDawg]

are you 100% certain on this, that there are no "locked" areas on the newer 733-411? where are you getting this info from? i really want this to be true so i can tune my S4RS already.

From Dynojet's lips to my hand to this forum:

There is no locked versus unlocked version...it is just a different map that is loaded.  The standard map just have (my speculation) zero as values for the "locked" portion since the O2 and stock ECU will just cancel out PCIII's value anyway.  I don't know which maps available from their download site have value across the range or which ones have zeros.

...thinking about it, it doesn't matter because if you have value below 5250 RPM and 19% throttle, the stock ECU will just compensate and reduce fueling to get it back to OEM levels...so its not the PCIII is "locked" it just that the stock ECU compensates the PCIII values to get it back to stock level.

[dbran1949]

From Dynojet's lips to my hand to this forum:

There is no locked versus unlocked version...it is just a different map that is loaded.  The standard map just have (my speculation) zero as values for the "locked" portion since the O2 and stock ECU will just cancel out PCIII's value anyway.  I don't know which maps available from their download site have value across the range or which ones have zeros.

...thinking about it, it doesn't matter because if you have value below 5250 RPM and 19% throttle, the stock ECU will just compensate and reduce fueling to get it back to OEM levels...so its not the PCIII is "locked" it just that the stock ECU compensates the PCIII values to get it back to stock level.

If I had a nickle for every time I read a thread on the Ducati ECU, I'd have $429.85. Now I am even more confused. CDawg I read a few posts back the the PC III gets between the ECU and the injectors. If this is the case, it would have the last say in the injector pulse width, wouldn't matter what the ECU was deciding the fuel / air ratio should be.

What you are describing is the PC III tricking the Ducati ECU (stock or DP) into thinking the TPS, RPM, and whatever else are in a different place so the Ducati ECU looks up a value in its map (look up table) that has a wider pulse width for the injector.

Since you can talk to the PC III guys, would you ask them
1. Does it trick the ECU into going to a different place in its own map (this is how a lot of the add-on devices work for the honda cars)
2. Does it read rpm, tps itself and use its own map
3. Does it read the ECU calculated pulse width to the injector (let the ecu do all the work) then just lengthen or shorten it based on it own modifier map

I am not completely unhappy with the DP full termi kit, but i do think it could run a little better
Thanks for any info you can dig up

[SikDuc]

Ya , what he (CDawg) said!

Lou

From Dynojet's lips to my hand to this forum:

There is no locked versus unlocked version...it is just a different map that is loaded.  The standard map just have (my speculation) zero as values for the "locked" portion since the O2 and stock ECU will just cancel out PCIII's value anyway.  I don't know which maps available from their download site have value across the range or which ones have zeros.

...thinking about it, it doesn't matter because if you have value below 5250 RPM and 19% throttle, the stock ECU will just compensate and reduce fueling to get it back to OEM levels...so its not the PCIII is "locked" it just that the stock ECU compensates the PCIII values to get it back to stock level.

[CDawg]

If this is the case, it would have the last say in the injector pulse width, wouldn't matter what the ECU was deciding the fuel / air ratio should be.

That is not the case.  My understanding is the PCIII modifies the ECU signal based on it's own table, hence the uploading of a map to PCIII.  The PCIII is a static map by adding or subtracting a fixed value to the stock ECU signal.  Using a made up example, the stock ecu sends a "5" to the injectors based on RPM and TPS.  The PCIII would the look up the RPM and TPS in its table for a modifier value, which for arguement sake say is a +2.  The next signal to the injector is a "7".  Now the O2 sensor reads teh exhaust gasses and realizes the bike is running too rich (based on OEM spec) and send a signal back to the stock ECU.  The stock ECU then reduces it's signal to a "3".  This "3" is then intercepted by the PCIII which adds a "+2" before passing the signal along to the injector.  The new value to the injector is a 5 (3+2) which is the OEM default.  This is the "beauty" of a closed loop system.

Since you can talk to the PC III guys, would you ask them
1. Does it trick the ECU into going to a different place in its own map (this is how a lot of the add-on devices work for the honda cars)
2. Does it read rpm, tps itself and use its own map
3. Does it read the ECU calculated pulse width to the injector (let the ecu do all the work) then just lengthen or shorten it based on it own modifier map

I am not completely unhappy with the DP full termi kit, but i do think it could run a little better

I don't have an insider track...they can be reach on +1-702-399-1423

[dbran1949]

That is not the case.  My understanding is the PCIII modifies the ECU signal based on it's own table, hence the uploading of a map to PCIII.  The PCIII is a static map by adding or subtracting a fixed value to the stock ECU signal.  Using a made up example, the stock ecu sends a "5" to the injectors based on RPM and TPS.  The PCIII would the look up the RPM and TPS in its table for a modifier value, which for arguement sake say is a +2.  The next signal to the injector is a "7".  Now the O2 sensor reads teh exhaust gasses and realizes the bike is running too rich (based on OEM spec) and send a signal back to the stock ECU.  The stock ECU then reduces it's signal to a "3".  This "3" is then intercepted by the PCIII which adds a "+2" before passing the signal along to the injector.  The new value to the injector is a 5 (3+2) which is the OEM default.  This is the "beauty" of a closed loop system.

CDawg, Thanks
What you described is basically item 3 in my list. This is exactly how I would do it. (I have been developing automated control systems for the Utility industry for the last 15 years so I am intimately familiar with sensors, feedback, firmware etc.). Let the Ducati stock or DP ECU do all the work, then just tweak the result.

Thanks for the number I will give the folks there a call I am still curious to know if they also use TPS or RPM to modify the tweak value