need help with leaning in turns.

[SeaS2R]

thanks so much for all the great advice, i've been out of town and away from my bike (m695) so i haven't had a chance to try some of these tips out, but i can't wait. so it seems its all about the countersteering, wich i think i was doing, but probably not to its full extent. So if i want to turn right, i push the handlebar lever right? how is it different from a low speed turn? i guess im not turning the bars, but rather pushing? is that righit?

thanks, will report back with the outcome.

TT

The Total Control book has already been suggested.  I haven't read it but I did read Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II when I first started riding and it explains many details of counter steering and other useful motorcycle riding tips.  Twist of the Wrist talks specifically about how to initiate the counter steer (arm position, direction of force, etc).  I definitely suggest getting one of these books to supplement the advice you're getting here and your subsequent riding.

[OT]

Seems to me you need to RELAX, you're probably too stiff in your arms (on the bars) and definitely too stiff in your hips and legs, which is where you actually lean from...leaning into a turn should be effortless unless you're not allowing yourself to do so (fear of leaning over).  Sit astride a bench (like at a little league ballpark) and simply lean to one side or the other to see which parts of your body allow you to lean and what the lean should feel like....it's not necessary to drag your knee or even slide to one side of the seat or the other...your leg and hip joints are loose and everything flows in unison.

I feel the MSF has incorported the best suggestions into its turning drill: Slow, Look, Lean, Roll.

* When approaching the turn, slow the bike to a safe entry speed.
* Look into and through the turn, not at/where the bike is currently heading.
* Lean your body to where you're looking (thru the turn...)
* Gently roll on the throttle, which will stabilize the bike (and if the roll-on is continued, will stand it back up so that you'll have to countersteer more to keep the bike leaned over).  If you let the bike slow down too much you'll feel like you're losing control and about to tip over - keep your speed up.

Done smoothly and in the order given, you'll lean - I guarantee it!  If you look into the turn you will lean - it's automatic (actually see where your want to go - it's not an exercise in turning your head sideways), unless you fight it thru fear...(the old adage is that the bike always goes towards where you're looking). Try the drill first with a bicycle until you're comfortable doing it (pedal faster instead of rolling on the throttle), and then go back to your motorcycle.

I find countersteering to be intuitive and happens naturally when I lean, and believe that if you actually start thinking about it it impedes the ability to lean into a turn.  BTW, countersteering works down to speeds of around 6-8 mph, which is like a jog....

Go to a big parking lot on Sunday morning and ride large-radius "Figure 8s" or weaves using the drill -- you'll be amazed at how quickly you'll find it's all in your mind.

IMPORTANT, TOO: After you've mastered the parking lot, go back on the street and start paying attention to where in your lane you're entering turns (generally, in the US, this should be from the outside of the lane for left-handers and the inside of the lane for right-handers).  The books mentioned above have good writeups on this important part of taking turns at higher speeds.

[Jarvicious]

This is coming from a fairly new rider (6000 miles this year on first bike) so take it with a grain of salt and please correct me, anyone, if I need it. 

I've found steering to come in little baby steps.  When I first got the bike off the truck (we're talking within minutes of getting it off the truck  ) and started to practice in a parking lot, (I can't recommend this enough) low speed turns were a real pain in the ass.  I could barely come up to a stop sign and turn either direction without stopping halfway through and kinda repositioning myself and the bike.  Then I discovered countersteering .  I think doubleeagle said it best: as soon as you get it, you just get it and you won't be able to stop smiling. 

Once you're comfortable crusing around town at a reasonable speed, +1 on finding a nice, secluded moderately twisty road to just run up and down.  You may post here or on a local forum to find other people who could let you in on some of their favorite roads.  Once you get the counter steering down, the upper body will come pretty naturally.  Since you should already be looking through the turn, it makes it easy for the rest of your body to follow in the same direction as your head.  I felt wierd at first to have my head/face that much closer to the ground and the handlebars, but once you get over that you feel much more in control.

Always make sure you're leaning farther over than the bike.  I raced mountain bikes for years so the first thing I tried to do when I took a mid speed corner is keep my body straight up and down and lean the bike over to turn.  As you're leaning with your head inside the turn, make a conscious effort to keep the bike as upright as possible while still leaning into the turn. 

As far as getting your ass off the saddle and putting your knee down, don't even think about it.  It's clear that you're enjoying your bike, but everything comes in baby steps.  The one thing I've been doing as of late when I go out and practice form (not just an A to B ride) is simply sticking my inside knee out.  I don't necessarily try and move my ass towards the inside of the turn, but whenever I pop my knee out and get my upper torso out over the bars, I can easily feel my body want to eek its way towards the inside of the turn.  Plus it forces you to plant your outside leg in between the peg and the tank which gave me a much better read on how the chassis was reacting to the turn. 

Everyone's telling you the same thing over and over (because it's good info), just thought some newbie to newbie advice was in order. Everybody learns differently though. Good luck, and always remember that the bike has (90% of the time) a lot more performance left in it than you think. 

[topspin_flyer]

Instead of pushing down on the left bar to go left, the distinction here is to push FORWARD on the left bar to turn left.  What this does is require less effort to get the bike turned then if you were trying to push DOWN.  What is also does is helps to initiate a bend in your elbows, as you will be able to push forward better if your elbows are bent and you kind of palm the bars. (push forward with the palm of your hands). This bend in your elbows helps keep your arms more relaxed as well.

Another really important thing to consider is how your body moves with the bike once it starts to lean.  Most riders have a tendency to stay straight up with the bike, or even lean the opposite way in the turn...so if the bike is going to the left, the rider is vertical or twisting to the right.  With your elbows bent, push forward on the left bar and let your left shoulder drop into the turn"

Misti

Misti, thank you so much for distinguishing between DOWN and FORWARD.  I know I have heard it before but the distinction never registered until you articulated it.  Today on my ride into work I tried it out, pushing FORWARD, and it was incredible the difference I feel.  Also dropping the left shoulder is a most helpful imagery.

Thanks again!!!

 

[misti]

Misti, thank you so much for distinguishing between DOWN and FORWARD.  I know I have heard it before but the distinction never registered until you articulated it.  Today on my ride into work I tried it out, pushing FORWARD, and it was incredible the difference I feel.  Also dropping the left shoulder is a most helpful imagery.

Thanks again!!! 

YAY!!!     Great to hear and I'm glad you tried it and noticed how much it works!  Most of the time riders to TOO MUCH WORK on the bike.  I always try to coach my riders to DO LESS when riding, it is less effort with more reward and then you can spend that energy on enjoying the ride and riding LONGER

Ride safe!

Misti

[swampduc]

+1 on Total Control - I try to work on at least one of the things it reccomends on every ride.

Does anyone have any reccs for a specific track school in the South? I live in South Louisiana.

[semyhr]

Hmm... so everyone uses countersteering to lean in turns? I have tried it a couple of times simply turning the wheel from left to right and I know the way it works but I never use it when leaning in turns, it seems to be too sharp and changing the direction too quick for me. When I drive above slow speeds like 10mph I don't use the steering bar at all. It just remains straight all of the time and I just lean with the body weight all of the time - it doesn't take much effort to do so and the lean seems to be very gradual without sharp falling over from one side.

So is the countersteering considered to be a better / safer way of leaning the bike?

[Statler]

Hmm... so everyone uses countersteering to lean in turns? I have tried it a couple of times simply turning the wheel from left to right and I know the way it works but I never use it when leaning in turns, it seems to be too sharp and changing the direction too quick for me. When I drive above slow speeds like 10mph I don't use the steering bar at all. It just remains straight all of the time and I just lean with the body weight all of the time - it doesn't take much effort to do so and the lean seems to be very gradual without sharp falling over from one side.

So is the countersteering considered to be a better / safer way of leaning the bike?

much covered here:   http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1596.0

[Jetbrett]

Hmm... so everyone uses countersteering to lean in turns? I have tried it a couple of times simply turning the wheel from left to right and I know the way it works but I never use it when leaning in turns, it seems to be too sharp and changing the direction too quick for me. When I drive above slow speeds like 10mph I don't use the steering bar at all. It just remains straight all of the time and I just lean with the body weight all of the time - it doesn't take much effort to do so and the lean seems to be very gradual without sharp falling over from one side.

So is the countersteering considered to be a better / safer way of leaning the bike?

Another noob here with 7k miles this year so there are definitely others with vastly more knowledge than I.  That said, I noticed your avatar is a m696. I also found that I could just lean to turn my m695 because it weighs next to nothing. Its almost like the bike wants to turn itself.  However, when I've needed to tighten up my line....aggressive cornering at speed or sudden emergency like an oversized truck in my lane at the apex of a blind right....countersteering will save your life.  I've found that leaning the bike will only take it down so far unless I also cut back a lot on throttle.  This all takes time though.  By countersteering, leaning out, and looking through the corner, I've found that I can very quickly tighten up my line and still carry good speed through the turn.  I'm still amazed at what the bike can do.  [moto]

[Statler]

I bet you're both countersteering even when not conscious of it.   You simply cannot get through a series of turns without doing it.

You could sit bolt upright and change direction very quickly using input at the bars only.

You cannot change direction very quickly without moving the bars.

This is required basic understanding for safe motorcycling.

The video available of two goldwings hustling through the gap are a good example.

[Cider]

Does anyone have any reccs for a specific track school in the South? I live in South Louisiana.

Schwantz is near Atlanta.  I've never been, but I did some research on it and it gets high marks from just about everybody.

[Buckethead]

For the OP: if you haven't taken the MSF Basic Rider Course, DO SO. I cannot urge you strongly enough.

The books mentioned will be a great resource to you, but nothing compares to 2 days of having your riding critiqued by someone who knows what to watch for from a beginner. You will probably cut about a year off your learning curve, and it may just save your life.

Its also a really good time.

[semyhr]

I bet you're both countersteering even when not conscious of it.   

I used to ride a bicycle a lot.. a few days ago I tried if countersteering works on it as well.. Guess what - you cannot make a turn unless you do the countersteering. I have been riding bicycle for years and years without knowing it so I guess I do the same on the bike.

[duc996]

Trust your tires,it will stick.

[misti]

I bet you're both countersteering even when not conscious of it.   You simply cannot get through a series of turns without doing it.

You could sit bolt upright and change direction very quickly using input at the bars only.

You cannot change direction very quickly without moving the bars.

This is required basic understanding for safe motorcycling.

The video available of two goldwings hustling through the gap are a good example.

Excellent point!  Most people, when they think they are just leaning with their body weight into the turn are actually putting some pressure on the bars and therefore counter steering without really realizing it.  If you consciously work on pressing the left bar to go left and pressing the right bar to go right, you will be able to steer your bike the most effectively.  If you find that it turns too sharp or too much then just vary the AMOUNT of pressure you put on the bars not how LONG you push the bars for.  A lot of people make the mistake of pushing the bar and then holding it throughout the remainder of the corner but you don't need to do that.  Just push the bar until you are at the lean angle you want and then release the pressure.

Ride safe!

Misti