need help with leaning in turns.

[zedsaid]

Another thing...

I've known about counter steering since i was a kid riding a bike... but after many years off of 2 wheels, just got onto a  [moto].

I use counter steering intuitively, like everyone who does it not knowing they're doing it.  The thing that you notice once you're doing it deliberately, is that you'll enter your turns much more quickly.

Still, though i practice it constantly (the whole 3 months i've been riding), the other day i came up on a car a little quicker than suspected, and reacted by pulling left to go left.  WRONG!!!  Luckily, i had plenty of time to correct.  But it just goes to show, you need to drill it and practice it until it's not just second nature, it's natural.

There are many mentions, in many posts, about people who have been riding forever, and should know better, but when push came to shove, and the obstacle jumped in front of them, they (counter)steered into it rather than away, because flinch reflex tells you "steer away" which is counter to what you want to do.

[mojo]

I use counter steering intuitively, like everyone who does it not knowing they're doing it.  The thing that you notice once you're doing it deliberately, is that you'll enter your turns much more quickly.

the other day i came up on a car a little quicker than suspected, and reacted by pulling left to go left.  WRONG!!!  Luckily, i had plenty of time to correct.  But it just goes to show, you need to drill it and practice it until it's not just second nature, it's natural.

I would still consider myself a noob when it comes to riding, but one thing i have noticed is that the more you lean into a corner, the easier it is to push on the inside bar.  It almost feels to me like leaning and countersteering is just one input to turn the bike.

[semyhr]

well.. I paid more attention and of course I do countersteering.. I was thinking that I lean but while leaning I was putting some pressure on the inside bar hence the countersteering. Now knowing it and messing around with it in some corners controlling it is a lot better 

[misti]

well.. I paid more attention and of course I do countersteering.. I was thinking that I lean but while leaning I was putting some pressure on the inside bar hence the countersteering. Now knowing it and messing around with it in some corners controlling it is a lot better 

Great to hear!  A lot of riders do exactly what you just described, and as soon as you realize consciously what you are doing to steer the bike, you can then work on getting better control.  Things like sitting back a bit in the seat so that your arms can be bent and pushing FORWARD on the bars instead of down on the bars will also help.  Keep at it and ride safe!

Misti

[semyhr]

Great to hear!  A lot of riders do exactly what you just described, and as soon as you realize consciously what you are doing to steer the bike, you can then work on getting better control.  Things like sitting back a bit in the seat so that your arms can be bent and pushing FORWARD on the bars instead of down on the bars will also help.  Keep at it and ride safe!

Misti

Thanks, will try that out too

[Takster]

I don't know if this will help anybody, but I just came to this realization last night that at speeds >20mph, the bike pretty much rides itself with minimal input.  Basically, I stopped trying to force it to turn and started letting it turn with very slight input from me....  I feel like if I stay loose and visualize a line, I don't have to do more than make a casual suggestion to the bike, and it does it happily.  The lean happens by itself.  I feel like the more I do, the sketchier the turns feel, and the bike just gets confused.  is this what everybody talks about when they say "stay relaxed?"

Anybody know what I'm talking about?

~Tak (aka SuperNewb)

[Mac_48]

you naturally countersteer the bike when you lean into turns......it is impossible to turn without moving the handlebars.......example....Keith Code's no bs bike :

[Orangettes]

you naturally countersteer the bike when you lean into turns......it is impossible to turn without moving the handlebars.......example....Keith Code's no bs bike :

You prove the point that everyone actually does counter steering.   But some still found it harder to turn, and I guess it's what he was asking about.

[zedsaid]

I don't know if this will help anybody, but I just came to this realization last night that at speeds >20mph, the bike pretty much rides itself with minimal input.  Basically, I stopped trying to force it to turn and started letting it turn with very slight input from me....  I feel like if I stay loose and visualize a line, I don't have to do more than make a casual suggestion to the bike, and it does it happily.  The lean happens by itself.  I feel like the more I do, the sketchier the turns feel, and the bike just gets confused.  is this what everybody talks about when they say "stay relaxed?"

Anybody know what I'm talking about?

~Tak (aka SuperNewb)

Stay relaxed means that, except for the specific muscles used to give the imputs desired, none of your muscles should be flexed. (relaxed muscles react quicker.)

Taking a leisurely line through the curves means you're leaned longer than necessary. If you look at a riding technique book (like Twist of the Wrist II or Total Control), you will notice that the "correct line" starts later than where you're probably entering your turn, makes a sharp bend, then straightens out considerably rather quickly.  I picture a slalom skier. 

I think this abrupt direction change is what makes you feel as though the turn is sketchy.   But it'll help you stop quicker (or steer around) if the cage in front of you has suddenly decided they want to stop in the middle of the road to sight-see. Because you'll be un-leaned for the most part, and have plenty of brake to squeeze (or more lean to give-if you're swerving).

[Cider]

you will notice that the "correct line" starts later than where you're probably entering your turn, makes a sharp bend, then straightens out considerably rather quickly.

What makes this the correct line?  Doesn't it effectively tighten up the corner?  Lean time is minimized, but it comes at the expense of an abrupt input and a high lean angle (although for a brief amount of time).

I'll give one possible answer to my own question: a late apex lets you peek around the corner to see what's coming--a nice advantage on the street.  Personally, I've been taught different lines on the track, though.

[zedsaid]

What makes this the correct line?  Doesn't it effectively tighten up the corner?  Lean time is minimized, but it comes at the expense of an abrupt input and a high lean angle (although for a brief amount of time).

I'll give one possible answer to my own question: a late apex lets you peek around the corner to see what's coming--a nice advantage on the street.  Personally, I've been taught different lines on the track, though.

There are many reasons... and the books will tell you more than i can from having read them through once each, but i'll try-

What you said -

-yes. This is very helpful on the street. (and as long as you're not pushing the bike past it's lean limit, you're fine)

-also.  If you pick your turn point (it'll be a place you can see) you get most of the lean done on pavement you know doesn't have gravel on it.  As opposed to having 3/4 as much lean for twice as long, in which case you'll be leaned when you come across that sandy patch around the bend.  If you're already straight when you hit it, no biggie.

- and you have plenty of lean to use to avoid that afore mentioned sandy spot or any random deer.

If you're asking why it would be better on the track-

-It gives you a longer straightaway until you need to brake for your turn... that's longer you get to go faster.

-It gets you back on the gas faster... that means you're accelerating while the other guy is still turning.

[Cider]

That's a good summary--thanks.  It sounds like a point-and-shoot style, but I can see where it would have its advantages.

[misti]

I don't know if this will help anybody, but I just came to this realization last night that at speeds >20mph, the bike pretty much rides itself with minimal input.  Basically, I stopped trying to force it to turn and started letting it turn with very slight input from me....  I feel like if I stay loose and visualize a line, I don't have to do more than make a casual suggestion to the bike, and it does it happily.  The lean happens by itself.  I feel like the more I do, the sketchier the turns feel, and the bike just gets confused.  is this what everybody talks about when they say "stay relaxed?"

Anybody know what I'm talking about?

~Tak (aka SuperNewb)

When done correctly, countersteering is extremely effective in getting the bike turned with minimal effort.  Sometimes it feels like you just give it the suggestion to turn, with a little push on the bars and the bike falls into the turn.  That is what you are aiming for when riding and being more relaxed will help with that.

A mistake that a lot of people make is that once they have initiated the turn in, they continue to push on the inside bar throughout the turn.  Not only does this continue to lean the bike over further but it will make it feel more unstable because you have extra tension on your arms and on the bars.  Sounds to me like this is what you are describing when you talk about the turn feeling sketchy.  You press on the bar to get the bike to turn in and then you really do nothing else, stay relaxed, until it is time to countersteer out of the turn.

So, yes, I think that is what people are talking about when they say stay relaxed.
 [moto]
Misti

[DucLeone]

A mistake that a lot of people make is that once they have initiated the turn in, they continue to push on the inside bar throughout the turn.  Not only does this continue to lean the bike over further but it will make it feel more unstable because you have extra tension on your arms and on the bars.  Sounds to me like this is what you are describing when you talk about the turn feeling sketchy.  You press on the bar to get the bike to turn in and then you really do nothing else, stay relaxed, until it is time to countersteer out of the turn.

So, yes, I think that is what people are talking about when they say stay relaxed.
 [moto]
Misti

wow that souds familiar to me, i've done that and you're right

[Takster]

.....
I think this abrupt direction change is what makes you feel as though the turn is sketchy.   But it'll help you stop quicker (or steer around) if the cage in front of you has suddenly decided they want to stop in the middle of the road to sight-see. Because you'll be un-leaned for the most part, and have plenty of brake to squeeze (or more lean to give-if you're swerving).

What I meant by "sketchy" is more of a feeling of twitchiness in the handling of the bike that happens when I feel like I'm really trying to push the steering input... I'm not trying to match the radius of the turn all the way around or make it happen at the end.