check it out under http://hdforums.com/
That's a weird article. They didn't even ride the bikes. It was just comparing specs. And they said the Harley was 192 lbs. less. They meant more.
edit: I missed this gem in my original post.
The braking system of the XR1200 uses a dual disc in the front with 4-piston calipers clamping down on the 11.5" rotors. In the rear, a single 11.5" disc is bracketed by a single floating piston caliper. The Ducati also uses a dual disc setup in the front with 4-piston calipers, but they use 12.6" rotors. Out back, the Monster 1100S has a significantly smaller rotor, measuring only 9.6", with a 2-piston caliper. The larger front rotors may give the Ducati stronger and more responsive braking, but the Harley system balances the braking pressure more evenly.
And of course comparing an S model to the only HD model. A base monster 1100 would still be way faster in every category than the sportster but cost about the same.
Looked at the discussion, and for an HD forum, seemed there were a lot of guys who'd rather have the Duc.
As the previous owner of a 1200 cc sportster (and this was more than a decade ago) I find it very very very hard to believe that machine makes 90 HP. At the crank on a very friendly dyno ....maybe. In the real world...at the rear wheel..hell no. I'd like to see a show of hands...who thinks the sporty is down by only 3o or so ponies on a s4rs let alone down 5 on the s2r1000
I always thought that naming one of their bike a "sportster" showed that HD has a sense of humor.
Quote from: Norm on December 13, 2008, 06:38:14 AM
I always thought that naming one of their bike a "sportster" showed that HD has a sense of humor.
Its all relative. Compared to a Road King, for instance, the Sportster is "quick."
Quote from: blue tiger on December 12, 2008, 08:18:27 PM
As the previous owner of a 1200 cc sportster (and this was more than a decade ago) I find it very very very hard to believe that machine makes 90 HP. At the crank on a very friendly dyno ....maybe. In the real world...at the rear wheel..hell no. I'd like to see a show of hands...who thinks the sporty is down by only 3o or so ponies on a s4rs let alone down 5 on the s2r1000
A lot has happened in the last ten years. In the past the Sportsters didn't get any Buell updates. Buells with the same basic engine as the XR1200 have about 90 hp at the rear wheel, so I see no reason why the XR1200 wouldn't produce similar numbers. They might tune it a little differently, but it is the same engine.
Reference: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/79/881/Motorcycle-Article/2004-Buell-XB12R-Firebolt.aspx
It's like comparing a sumo wrestler with a ballet dancer [bang]
Harleys SUCK.
'Nuff said.
Quote from: blue tiger on December 12, 2008, 08:18:27 PM
As the previous owner of a 1200 cc sportster (and this was more than a decade ago) I find it very very very hard to believe that machine makes 90 HP. At the crank on a very friendly dyno ....maybe. In the real world...at the rear wheel..hell no. I'd like to see a show of hands...who thinks the sporty is down by only 3o or so ponies on a s4rs let alone down 5 on the s2r1000
My 2006 Sporty made 87 RWHP, measured on two different dynos. It started out as an 883. I converted it to 1200 using the NRHS kit, and installed a set of ported Buell heads. If the factory has improved the heads on the XR, 90 RWHP is not hard to believe.
Having said that, the bike still weighed a ton, had lousy brakes, and even with Ohlins suspension upgrades it did not handle worth a damn. I realized that no matter how much I dumped into it, it would never be.... sporty. That is when I bought my Monster.
Quote from: Norm on December 13, 2008, 06:38:14 AM
I always thought that naming one of their bike a "sportster" showed that HD has a sense of humor.
Well the Sportster
was a very sporty bike when it first came out, in
1957. ;D
Quote from: krolik on December 13, 2008, 09:01:21 AM
Well the Sportster was a very sporty bike when it first came out, in 1957. ;D
EXACTLY.
At the time, it was the fastest production bike, or some such ... seams ridiculous now, of course! :)
I thought they weren't releasing the XR in the states?
did HD finally give in to customer demand?
One need only look at the claimed dry weight of the XR1200 - 250 kgr. That's right, 550 lbs. DRY. They must use lead to get it that heavy. To use the word "Sport" in this context is just stupid. [laugh]
I love the looks of the XR styling and the exhaust does have a decent note if you don't go straight pipes. If Hardly was going to make this bike they should have given it to Eric. [thumbsup]
Now the new 1125CR is a whole different ball game. [thumbsup] Except for the whale shark look of the cooling intakes it's a bad ass motorcycle. For under 12 large it's a pretty good price point too. Hardley guys hate em too.
LA
Quote from: LA on December 13, 2008, 12:12:04 PM
Now the new 1125CR is a whole different ball game. [thumbsup] Except for the whale shark look of the cooling intakes it's a bad ass motorcycle. For under 12 large it's a pretty good price point too. Hardley guys hate em too.
Hmmmmm.......12 grand for a Buell that no one will work on or $12,999 for an 848 or an Aprilia RSVR.
I think I would skip the 1125CR.
Quote from: Monstermash on December 13, 2008, 12:19:46 PM
Hmmmmm.......12 grand for a Buell that no one will work on or $12,999 for an 848 or an Aprilia RSVR.
I think I would skip the 1125CR.
Well .... when you say it like that the CR doesn't sound like such a good deal. ;D
LA
Quote from: Travman on December 13, 2008, 07:25:43 AM
A lot has happened in the last ten years. In the past the Sportsters didn't get any Buell updates. Buells with the same basic engine as the XR1200 have about 90 hp at the rear wheel, so I see no reason why the XR1200 wouldn't produce similar numbers. They might tune it a little differently, but it is the same engine.
Reference: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/79/881/Motorcycle-Article/2004-Buell-XB12R-Firebolt.aspx
I did not know this. Do something about the weight,. the suspension and the brakes and I think they're onto something. BTW I'm not bashing HD. I have a Road King with 30 grand on the clock. However I owned an S4RS (before totalling it :-[) and it's not in the same ballpark, league or sport. I did have fun on my sporty, got laid alot because of it (or more likely the crowd/age I was) and could puull a wheelie on it after I tried and tried to learn. Fun yes but a comparo with a monster?
Quote from: blue tiger on December 12, 2008, 08:18:27 PM
As the previous owner of a 1200 cc sportster (and this was more than a decade ago) I find it very very very hard to believe that machine makes 90 HP. At the crank on a very friendly dyno ....maybe. In the real world...at the rear wheel..hell no. I'd like to see a show of hands...who thinks the sporty is down by only 3o or so ponies on a s4rs let alone down 5 on the s2r1000
Not a chance in Hates. A '03 Heritage Softail Classic which I owned for several years put out according to the Harley catalog about 60 hp which probably was at the crank.
If the 1200cc Sporster puts out another 10 to 15 hp I might believe that. Dolph
I went to the HD website and checked out the slideshow. If you flip through it enough, the XR starts to resemble a Buell Blast on steroids.
At least they are trying!
Quote from: DoubleEagle on December 13, 2008, 11:03:11 PM
Not a chance in Hates. A '03 Heritage Softail Classic which I owned for several years put out according to the Harley catalog about 60 hp which probably was at the crank.
If the 1200cc Sporster puts out another 10 to 15 hp I might believe that. Dolph
My 01 RoadKing feels like it has about 50. Top speed with the windshield off is about 109.
Brand comparisons made for good conversation (especially for those who like to compare numbers) but let's face it... It boils down to DNA. In the East Coast, most HD owners think of us as irresponsible twits that needed to buy an overpriced Italian penis extension to justify our existence and who go around giving a bad reputation to bikers with our riding styles (or something along those lines ;D) Meanwhile, most Desmo owners would not be caught dead in a HD even if they were giving them for free at the local Starbucks. It might take 100 more years, but in the end, Darwin is sure to decide... ;)
I've owned 3 or 4 Harleys thru the years and, in general, like them. The new motors work good and can easily be upgraded to resonable HP levels. The 1st bike I owned was a '67 modified sporster that we all thought was great.............until we started riding the British bikes. In the HD world, I feel that the sportster has always been at the bottom of the barrell and still is (althought it's been about 3-4 years since I've ridden one).
Quote from: Norm on December 14, 2008, 07:36:23 AM
I feel that the sportster has always been at the bottom of the barrell and still is.
And it always will be until they update the design of the 100 year old power plant for something that revs over 5500 rpm.
Quote from: Norm on December 14, 2008, 07:36:23 AM
In the HD world, I feel that the sportster has always been at the bottom of the barrell and still is (althought it's been about 3-4 years since I've ridden one).
I consider the Sportster to be the best of the HD lineup, but that aint sayin much....
I owned an 883 Sportster prior to getting my Monster and I like the new XR1200. I kind of dig that homage to the old flat track racers, but the weight is wayy too high to be a proper sporting bike. It doesn't come close to playing in the same sandbox as an 1100S Monster, but it'd be kind of cool as a second bike if the first bike was a big Harley tourer.
I just got back from th Seattle IMS show where I got to sit on the HD.
The bike is a big fat pig (or is that a hog?) with giant wide bars that sit you too far back and too upright to give you any weight on the front in cornering .
The brakes are cheap weak two piston HD units clamping tiny non-floating disks, they gonna compare that to radial brembos and full floating calipers? (give me a break!)
The bike is not in the same ball park with anything performance oriented but I'll bet it stomps all the other HDs...
[bacon] [bacon] [bacon]
The best HD as far as sport or performance (in my opinion) was the 1983 xr 1000. If it was purchased with the engine upgrades from manley it made over 90 HP and since it was essentially a street legal flat tracker it would have been easy to modify into a much more powerful machine. It would still have suffered from the same problems as far as the frame/brakes /suspension. I don't think they were specially modified in any way. I actually had the chance to buy one years ago and passed it up. I still kick myself over that one.Look it up. It's a pretty cool machine.
Quote from: flynbulldog on December 14, 2008, 04:20:48 PM
The brakes are cheap weak two piston HD units clamping tiny non-floating disks...
4-piston Nissin brakes on the XR1200.
I'm not trying to defend the XR1200. It is what it is. It is a heavy standard. It is a Sportster that now has a few more horsepower, better suspension & better brakes than the standard Sportster. It has a flat track looking paint job. Nobody ever thought it could hang with the Ducati. Not even the people in the HD forum or the person that wrote the article.
Funny, most of the anti-Harley comments in this thread are similar to the comments you can see on Japanese liter bike threads...... about Ducatis.
Motorcyclist did a write-up recently of a comparo between the XR1200 and a Super DukeR.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_0811_2008_harley_xr1200_vs_ktm_superduke_990_r/index.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_0811_2008_harley_xr1200_vs_ktm_superduke_990_r/index.html)
I like the HD, I have an HD and love it...i love my Ducati also...I have them for differnt "needs"
Quote from: Centerline on December 14, 2008, 08:33:46 PM
Funny, most of the anti-Harley comments in this thread are similar to the comments you can see on Japanese liter bike threads...... about Ducatis....
True, but Ducati owners can point to World Superbike and MotoGP as evidence of Ducati's performance, but HD owners cannot.
HD's serve one purpose: Vanity [coffee]
Quote from: pompetta on December 15, 2008, 07:18:44 AM
True, but Ducati owners can point to World Superbike and MotoGP as evidence of Ducati's performance, but HD owners cannot.
Harley has never competed in that arena, invalid comparison.
Quote from: flynbulldog on December 15, 2008, 09:01:33 AM
HD's serve one purpose: Vanity [coffee]
Whatever dude...I like mine for what it is. You got your Ducati for vanity sake also. Some of you peeps on here whine about HD like a bunch of babies. I have a Harley and Monster. Like 'em both as someone stated earlier, it serves a different need.
A neighbor gave me some seat-time on a V-Rod. I was impressed with it. Handled well, super-smooth (way smoother than my M750) power delivery too. If I had money to throw at a spendy bike, I'd consider a V-Rod for a stable mate to my M750 ~
JM
Quote from: pompetta on December 15, 2008, 07:18:44 AM
True, but Ducati owners can point to World Superbike and MotoGP as evidence of Ducati's performance, but HD owners cannot.
Check out flat track racing in the USA for the past 30 years. Harley dominates, the XR has somewhat tenuous roots from the flat track racers.
Quote from: the_Journeyman on December 15, 2008, 11:10:17 AM
A neighbor gave me some seat-time on a V-Rod. I was impressed with it. Handled well, super-smooth (way smoother than my M750) power delivery too. If I had money to throw at a spendy bike, I'd consider a V-Rod for a stable mate to my M750 ~
JM
I dig the V-rod as well, but you have to remember that they're part Porsche (which, I think, explains my affinity towards them more so than other Harleys).
Harley deserves at least part of a star (not a gold one, maybe bronze??) for at least partially throwing themselves into the sport arena outside of Buell's company, but the Harley/Duc comparison is really kind of moot, as is the Harley/KTM comparison. If you took all of the labels off both bikes and did a "blind" preference test, I think you'd get the same results as if the labels were on them. People only buy motorcycles for a handfull of reasons and base their decisions on a handfull of features. Ducatis are race bikes. Even thier touring model has the dual spark balls of some of the monsters. Harleys are the most basic of functionslity and mostly for looks. Two wheels, motor, steering and stopping. I've ridden a handful of Harleys and have been extraordinarily bored by all of them. The choice between Monster and XR is like shopping for a car and thinking "Do I want a Hundai Tiburon (classified as a sport compact I believe) or an Audi TT".
I'm not trying (hard) to dog on HDs, I think it's just that this is such a stretch for Harley's normal models that everyone is searching for something to compare it to when there's nothing there. I'd compare it to a stock 1200 sportster, I guess. My mom has a Fat Boy and I do admit it's nice around town and for >50 mile highway treks but I couldn't compare it to my Duc or trade it for my Duc.
If you want comfort, buy a Road King. If you want greasy, nasty speed, buy a Monster. The XR is just a senesless combination of the two based on a historical fancy and little to no reason.
Quote from: greenohawk69 on December 15, 2008, 11:03:27 AM
Harley has never competed in that arena, invalid comparison.
Not entirely true... they had a race team... and they kept blowing up for two seasons. I don't recall it finishing a race. Buells are raced too, but need a special "Thunder" class cause they can't compete with the big boys. So it is actually a sadly valid comparison.
Quote from: the_Journeyman on December 15, 2008, 11:10:17 AM
A neighbor gave me some seat-time on a V-Rod. I was impressed with it. Handled well, super-smooth (way smoother than my M750) power delivery too. If I had money to throw at a spendy bike, I'd consider a V-Rod for a stable mate to my M750 ~
JM
My '06 Street Rod is largely the reason I parted with my '94 M900. ;)
It's a great all-around ride (my favorite thus far), really too bad the masses didn't get it. I refuse to buy any of their other bikes - if I want to ride an antique I've got my Panhead.
Quote from: WannaDucBad on December 15, 2008, 01:41:55 PM
Not entirely true... they had a race team... and they kept blowing up for two seasons. I don't recall it finishing a race. Buells are raced too, but need a special "Thunder" class cause they can't compete with the big boys. So it is actually a sadly valid comparison.
The VR1000 program (which the V-Rod engine is derived from) was tragically underfunded as I recall. Initial problems resulted in H-D becoming unwilling to pony up the dough to keep doing R&D to stay competitive and they pulled the plug and redirected their efforts to drag racing. V-Rod was a way to A) pull in new buyers that didn't want early-1900s performance and B) a way to recoup some of the VR powerplant development and tooling dollars.
Like I said, 550 lbs. DRY?
Damn! how much better would the same bike be with 100 LBS. lighter?
Many testers have said good things about the bike, but how much better would it be 100 LBs. lighter?
Even if you went back to Norton MkIII series frames for a pattern wouldn't you come up with something that weighted 100 LBs. lighter.
The extra weight doomed the effort before it began.
LA
Quote from: Centerline on December 15, 2008, 11:51:46 AM
Check out flat track racing in the USA for the past 30 years. Harley dominates, the XR has somewhat tenuous roots from the flat track racers.
Thats because no one else give a shit about flat track racing. If Ducati or any of the Japanese brands decided to get involved it would be lights out for Harley just like in every other competitive motorcycle arena.
The funny thing is that most of the print media (Motorcyclist and Cycle World) gave it great reviews. That proves only one thing, ad dollars dictate the reviews in the media.
Quote from: Speedbag on December 15, 2008, 03:48:23 PM
My '06 Street Rod is largely the reason I parted with my '94 M900. ;)
It's a great all-around ride (my favorite thus far), really too bad the masses didn't get it.
They didn't "get it" because there is nothing to get. Sure the Street Rod is pretty cool when compared to other Harleys but try and make time down a twisty road and the fact that it really is an overweight slug with shitty suspension becomes abundantly obvious. Not to mention all the hard parts that start to touch down at the slightest hint of a spirited pace.
That being said if I was ever going to buy a Harley it would be the Street Rod. It would be my lazy Sunday afternoon crusier. [laugh]
What I want to know is why are Harleys so freakin expensive? It isn't because they come with all the best components and it certainly isn't because they spend a ton of money on R&D. Their definition of R&D is deciding what color to paint next years models. There hasn't been any significant improvements in their design (other than the V-Rod, which they didn't even design) since the company started doing business.
Little Harley hatred there, Tom?
You better hope you never end up like me (unable to continue riding a duc). Someday comfort may become an issue-you might change your mind about what's desirable in a bike....
Mea culpa.
I've been guilty of poking fun at the HD's, but I've come to regret my prejudice. (Though I still think the cartoony HD "lifestyle" and uniform are ridiculous, though. All flash, no substance, for sure non-safe.).
If some one lives in Nebreska, Kansas, Illinois, Indiana, ND, SD, Florida, etc., etc., there's nary a twisty road for ever. Depending on where you live, the nearest fun destination might be 230 miles away on flat, boring, endless, drudging highway.
If that's the way you roll, I can't blame you for picking up an HD or equivalent for those kind of rides. Not everybody has GP-worthy twisties on their back door, or if they do, wants to carve them like Rossi.
Quote from: Monstermash on December 15, 2008, 08:53:58 PM
They didn't "get it" because there is nothing to get. Sure the Street Rod is pretty cool when compared to other Harleys but try and make time down a twisty road and the fact that it really is an overweight slug with shitty suspension becomes abundantly obvious. Not to mention all the hard parts that start to touch down at the slightest hint of a spirited pace.
That being said if I was ever going to buy a Harley it would be the Street Rod. It would be my lazy Sunday afternoon crusier. [laugh]
Just so ya know, the SR has a frame unique to the model with less rake than the rest of the line, as well as more ground clearance and seat height. Inverted fork? Check. Longer travel rear shocks? Check. I've ridden mine on the same roads I'd ride the Duc on and at the same clip with no drama. Overweight? Sure, it would be even better with 100+ pounds less to carry around (I'm betting the exhaust mount weighs 30 pounds itself). Slug? Nah, mine puts down a hair over 120 HP at the wheel with minimal (non-internal) mods and has surprised a few. The SR chassis setup allows several more degrees of lean angle than a typical V-Rod model and I've never dragged anything yet while out tearing around.
Which isn't to say I'm ruling out another Duc entirely. Quite the opposite. But I have been amazed at how much I like my SR. I'm one H-D owner that can appreciate other makes. ;)
Quote from: Monstermash on December 13, 2008, 07:59:25 AM
Harleys SUCK.
'Nuff said.
Wow thats a great post with tons of information! That is the same dumba$$ quotes people hate HD owners for...All bikes are cool its about being on 2 wheels. Besides what great bike have you designed and built? [roll]
Quote from: lwszabo on December 16, 2008, 06:23:49 AM
Wow thats a great post with tons of information! That is the same dumba$$ quotes people hate HD owners for...All bikes are cool its about being on 2 wheels. Besides what great bike have you designed and built? [roll]
Settle down there new guy! If you love Harleys so much why don't you shuffle yourself over to the HD boards and leave this one to the Ducati enthusiasts.
And when HD builds a
great bike then come talk to me.
Quote from: Monstermash on December 16, 2008, 07:31:03 AMAnd when HD builds a great bike then come talk to me.
I think these Harleys are ok. ;)
(http://www.diseno-art.com/images/MV_Augusta_F4_Corse.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1sgFBi6tqN8/R0LOMVRwVgI/AAAAAAAAAIE/GUcN0buEbH0/s400/MV_Agusta_Brutale_910_R_2006_05_1024x768.jpg)
Quote from: somegirl on December 16, 2008, 08:03:30 AM
I think these Harleys are ok. ;)
(http://www.diseno-art.com/images/MV_Augusta_F4_Corse.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1sgFBi6tqN8/R0LOMVRwVgI/AAAAAAAAAIE/GUcN0buEbH0/s400/MV_Agusta_Brutale_910_R_2006_05_1024x768.jpg)
The day HD bought MV was one sad sad sad day... :'(
Just imagine harley rider straddling one of those beautiful bikes. So so sad....
Haha, ok, i'm guilty. I owned a Buell Lightning XB12 before. Interesting and entertaining bike. But sold it after a year. If only Erik can go w/ non HD engine at that time. Red-line at ~6800 rpm is just way too low.
It could be worse.
I have yet to see an MV with a chrome, stretched swingarm.
Quote from: Monstermash on December 16, 2008, 07:31:03 AM
Settle down there new guy! If you love Harleys so much why don't you shuffle yourself over to the HD boards and leave this one to the Ducati enthusiasts.
And when HD builds a great bike then come talk to me.
Dude, are you serious??? C'mon, man you've got better stuff than that. The OP was on point with his criticism of your "HD's SUCK" reply. If you don't like HD's, don't buy one. Harleys are what they are and don't really pretend to be anything else. I think we could come to a general consensus here that it's the stereotypical Harley RIDER that has soured our taste to the brand more than anything.
Quote from: DucNrun on December 16, 2008, 08:18:34 AM
Dude, are you serious??? C'mon, man you've got better stuff than that. The OP was on point with his criticism of your "HD's SUCK" reply.
Really? So it's ok for him to tell me I'm a dumbass?
Me thinks you need to go and read the forum rules.......
Quote from: Obsessed? on December 16, 2008, 08:11:53 AM
It could be worse.
I have yet to see an MV with a chrome, stretched swingarm.
Please don't give them any ideas! [puke]
Quoteit's the stereotypical Harley RIDER that has soured our taste to the brand more than anything.
While that is probably true for the most part it doesn't change the fact that HD's are big heavy machines that have not evolved past about 1940 and perform horribly compared to other bikes.
For me The cruiser/HD crowd is diametrically opposed to all other motorcycles. I don't consider them to be in the same hobby /sport /activity. There are so many good bikes that do everything better than HD's and cruisers that the only reason I can think of for owning one is for vanity. They are a fashion statement/accessory, you get to dress up in a pirate costume and play nasty... That has nothing to do with motorcycling to me. I don't consider "bikers" to be motorcyclists, I don't know what to call them but they have nothing in common with me. Please don't tell me we all ride two wheels, a horse trailer has two wheels.
I was parked across the street from a popular HD hangout last year on my Hailwood and one of the pirates came over and pointed to my steering damper and asked what it was. [bang] [laugh] They just don't even have a clue.
Quote from: Monstermash on December 16, 2008, 08:44:03 AM
Really? So it's ok for him to tell me I'm a dumbass?
Me thinks you need to go and read the forum rules.......
Please don't give them any ideas! [puke]
Well technically he called your reply dumb ass.
I own both, Sportster and Monster, and like them both for what they are. I've seen all types of bike comparison (cruiser vs sportbikes vs metric vs jap vs british vs sportster vs dyna vs 650r vs Er-6n, etc...) and some are interesting to read. What I don't get is people knocking down other bikes. :'( Yes, some are slow, some are ugly, some are just badly designed, but whatever. Somewhere out there, is an owner that loves his/her slow ugly bike. [moto]
Quote from: flynbulldog on December 16, 2008, 08:59:24 AM
There are so many good bikes that do everything better than HD's and cruisers that the only reason I can think of for owning one is for vanity.
Why do you own a Duc? Go get a Japanese bike. Vanity...How many here customize their bikes which did nothing to improve performance, handling, or safety - tail chop, belt covers, paint jobs, etc. Guilty here, but then again I am a HD owner. :-\
Quote from: flynbulldog
They are a fashion statement/accessory, you get to dress up in a pirate costume and play nasty... That has nothing to do with motorcycling to me.
I hear the same comments about Ducs, just substitute pirate for power ranger.
Quote from: flynbulldog
I was parked across the street from a popular HD hangout last year on my Hailwood and one of the pirates came over and pointed to my steering damper and asked what it was. [bang] [laugh] They just don't even have a clue.
And why would he need to know what a steering damper is? ???
Quote from: Monstermash on December 16, 2008, 07:31:03 AM
Settle down there new guy! If you love Harleys so much why don't you shuffle yourself over to the HD boards and leave this one to the Ducati enthusiasts.
And when HD builds a great bike then come talk to me.
I am sooooooo sorry I offended you, I may be new here but I was a member of TOB for a while, probally as long as you were there (or longer) I am a member of a HD board...oh and by the way I am a Ducati Enthusiast. But really I was not trying to go after you, i was making a statement about something you posted that was really silly... re-read you post.
Quote from: NYCmonster on December 16, 2008, 09:18:37 AMWhat I don't get is people knocking down other bikes. :'( Yes, some are slow, some are ugly, some are just badly designed, but whatever. Somewhere out there, is an owner that loves his/her slow ugly bike. [moto]
+1
To each their own.
What's with the stereotypes anyway? Harley riders wave to me and are very friendly when I meet them. Several people on this board, including at least one Flounder, are or have been a Harley owner. I have worked with many Harley owners and they have been very professional. Our police here in CA ride Harleys. I've heard multiple stories of Harley riders helping sportbike riders in need and vice versa.
I've met quite a few people on this board and most of them haven't lived up to the typical stereotype of a Ducati owner either. [thumbsup] [beer]
Why were you on a harley forum?
I love my S4RS, I love being part of the Ducati culture, and forums. When I bought my Monster, some people asked "why didn't I get a HD?" My answer was not that HD sucks, but it just didn't fit my image. The image I want to portray myself as. An image of a refinement in mechanical art, tasteful go to a lounge, daring to take fast corners, and versatile to , take it to the streets. I always had an image of an HD rider as 6 ft man with a beer belly gut, with a beard, and I don't fit in the "Wild Hogs. Tim Allen, John Travolta, Martin Lawrence and William H" category. Most of them.
I love my Monster S4RS, it gives me a chance to talk and relate to all riders. The R1, GXR, ZX,.... knows about my Ohlins, and Brembo, and gives me the props the bike deserves. The HD, Victory, Shadows, and Warriors...etc... talks to me and because the Monster with its round headlights doesn't look like a pocket rocket, speed freak. I think people knows that Ducati are Italian motorcycle and they either love them or hate them, but they know they are exotic. What a Ducati represents to me is a well rounded individual who is not about going fast, and is investing in a classic piece of art.
Writing about my Monster like it was my son i never had. I miss my Monster!
Quote from: NYCmonster on December 16, 2008, 09:18:37 AM
I own both, Sportster and Monster, and like them both for what they are.
You are making my point. They are definately engineered (although I hate to use that word in reference to HD) as different machines. Here lies the problem.... If they are supposed to be different and that is the intent then way are they comparing the two? [bang]
You may as well compare a dogsled to a Ducati, you'd get the same result.
Quote from: lwszabo on December 16, 2008, 09:49:53 AM
I am sooooooo sorry I offended you, I may be new here but I was a member of TOB for a while, probally as long as you were there (or longer) I am a member of a HD board...oh and by the way I am a Ducati Enthusiast. But really I was not trying to go after you, i was making a statement about something you posted that was really silly... re-read you post.
It's all good man. [beer] In fact I respect your opinion and that you have your own views as do I which is why I thought it odd that you would call me (or my statement) a dumbass for having one of my own. I have many reasons why I think they are the biggest POS on the road. It starts with the stupid amount of money they get for them when there is really nothing that makes them worth it. I could see if they were like the Japanese brands who spend crazy amounts of money on R&D and change the design every other year but most of the models available from HD are just warmed over from decades ago with no new technology. They paint it a different color and bolt on different bars and presto, they have a new model. How well do you think Ducati would be doing if they were wrapping old bevel motors in different bodywork and selling them? Just a guess but probably not too well. [roll]
The main reason why I hate Harleys is the whole "me too" attitude associated with most of the owners. It always makes me laugh when some rich doctor or lawyer (no offense Statler) goes out and buys the biggest most expensive HD they can find and then act all high and mighty and look down their noses at anyone who doesn't ride one. It's even funnier when they try to ride away and tip it over in the parking lot! [laugh]
Quote from: Monstermash on December 16, 2008, 01:53:15 PM
You are making my point.
But you missed mine. Why compare? I don't know, for shits and giggles. There's nothing wrong with comparing and backing it up with numbers, instead of just spewing this bike sucks, that bike sucks. If anything it's an interesting read, just like we all know that the Predator can kick the Alien's butt. ;) HDForum compares the XR1200 to several sport bikes and even to its own classic Sportster. In all of the comparisons, the overall outcome was that the other bikes were better performers and priced better (I think with the exception of the BMW for the latter). No surprise there, but this is coming from a HD site!
Quote from: MonstermashYou may as well compare a dogsled to a Ducati, you'd get the same result.
True, but maintenance on the dogsled is much lower. :P
Quote from: NYCmonster on December 16, 2008, 02:32:29 PM
True, but maintenance on the dogsled is much lower. :P
[laugh] [clap]
Quote from: Monstermash on December 16, 2008, 01:53:15 PMThe main reason why I hate Harleys is the whole "me too" attitude associated with most of the owners. It always makes me laugh when some rich doctor or lawyer (no offense Statler) goes out and buys the biggest most expensive HD they can find and then act all high and mighty and look down their noses at anyone who doesn't ride one.
And Ducati owners never do that? [cheeky]
Quote from: somegirl on December 16, 2008, 02:42:21 PM
And Ducati owners never do that? [cheeky]
;D
In some ways Ducatis and Harleys are very much alike. ;)
I have to admit that my Street Rod makes me somewhat of an outcast with the "real" H-D crowd too. Whatever. [roll] Ride what you want and fill the garage with all flavors, that's my motto.
I inherited a '66 Sears/Puch 2-smoker that I mean to get back on the road next summer. If you want slow and silly.....
QuoteYou may as well compare a dogsled to a Ducati, you'd get the same result.
QuoteTrue, but maintenance on the dogsled is much lower. :P
Not true at all. I have both a Ducati and a kennel of huskies (which is how you power a dog sled). I can testify that the huskies do require much more
maintenance. They require my attention every morning and night whether I run them or not. My Monster (also know as the Desmo pregnant dog) is likely
one of the most demanding and temperamental motorcycles on the planet but she is largely content to sit ideal for weeks or even months in
her shed. However, when out on the road the huskies will almost never break down, and they start up at extreme temperatures. The same cannot be said of the Desmo B*tch.
Performance wise the Duc has a greater top speed and great cornering in dry conditions. The huskies have awesome bottom end torque and can hang extreme corners in dry, snow, and ice.
Both perform well attracting the opposite sex although the appeal of the duc is limited during the winter whereas the appeal of the cute IZ_ huskies
is ever present.
Visits to the shop for scheduled checkups runs about the same for both.
Overall I'd say it is a toss up between the two and I wouldn't want to be without either.
Well there you have it, a comparo between a dog sled (team) and a monster. In a later issue we will be doing a full blown test where
we hope to get both on a dyno and add some head to head competition.
Quote from: Monstermash on December 16, 2008, 01:53:15 PM
but most of the models available from HD are just warmed over from decades ago with no new technology. They paint it a different color and bolt on different bars and presto, they have a new model. How well do you think Ducati would be doing if they were wrapping old bevel motors in different bodywork and selling them? Just a guess but probably not too well. [roll]
So.....do you like the 696 then? [cheeky]
Funny...there are lots of people on this forum who talk about riding their bikes as cruisers and not wanting to go to the track, and arguing with people when we say riding means performance riding.
Look through some threads and see how many people just ride their bike to the store or commute to the office, etc.
And yet in this thread it's all about performance and how the HD sucks because of that comparison.
So what's the difference between riding a Duc at 50% it's capability or a sportster at 75% at the same speed doing the same thing? Nothing. (I'm taking the ease of doing things and the weight of the bike into account which is why I put the percentages where I did).
A gixxer 1000, an s2r, and a sportster are all the same commuting (except for comfort and ease of riding slowly where the HD may be much better). Methinks more folks should try different kinds of bikes...especially those who don't ride pretty hard.
Quote from: MrIncredible on December 16, 2008, 05:38:04 PM
So.....do you like the 696 then? [cheeky]
Wow, I left myself wide open for that one didn't I? [laugh]
Truth is, I am not enamored with the 696. That being said I like the 1100 a little better, at least from an aesthetic stand point but you wont see me at my local dealer plunking down a deposit on one.
At least Ducati is trying to move forward rather than just sitting stagnent like HD. They have made some improvements with the new bike such as more power and less weight. The addition of radial brakes is a big plus as well.
<mod hat>Come on guys simm.... Hang on, it looks like you have simmered down already... Good work, carry on...</mod hat>
big
QuoteWhile that is probably true for the most part it doesn't change the fact that HD's are big heavy machines that have not evolved past about 1940 and perform horribly compared to other bikes.
Yeah, but you say that like it's a
bad thing.
My ideal, realistic to obtain, bike stable has my current Monster, a motard of some sort, an R-6 and some form of classic, oil-dripping, Pig of a bike.
Shoot, shuffle on over to the nearest Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki or Yamaha dealership. Not ONE of their flagship 2008 STOCK liter bikes puts down less than 157 HP at the rear wheel. Not one of them has an MSRP over $11,700. Not one of them has the high maintenance intervals or $$$$cost associated with Ducati motorcycles. All of them can corner with most any stock Ducati, whatever the price. All of them have a top speed far in excess of what a stock 1098 has, and a 1/4 mile drag race time faster than the mighty 1098.
Go visit any of their forums and proclaim the superiority of your Ducati because of the high dollars they cost in comparison.
HD cruisers are not about the latest technology (is the Ducati Desmo twin ?) HD builds comfortable, nostalgic replicas of a bygone day for their cruiser range.
Forgot to mention the performance available from Japanes 600cc sportbikes.
Again, to the average guy on a Japanese sportbike, they consider Ducatis the Harleys of the sportbike world.
Quote from: Centerline on December 16, 2008, 08:54:57 PM
Again, to the average guy on a Japanese sportbike, they consider Ducatis the Harleys of the sportbike world.
Bingo!
HD:cruiser = Ducati:sportbike
Sometimes, it's hard to look in the mirror only to see your own ugly mug staring back at you.
Quote from: Centerline on December 16, 2008, 08:54:57 PM
Not one of them has the high maintenance intervals
If all you compare is numbers I agree, there are better deals out there.
Here were our findings when we checked with a local Suzuki Only dealership in 2007 and asked for the "recommended" service intervals and alloted hours for all factory services up to 30,000 miles, this is what they told us. Please read that this is the "recommended" services from both Ducati and Suzuki. Most owners of Japanese bikes will admit they tend to ignore many of the "recommended" services as long as it's running ok... Ducati's admittedly do not like to be ignored... Here are some hard numbers that may shed a different light..
Last comment, what is the value of a well maintained used 2007 1098 with 30,000 vs a 2007 GSXR1000 with 30K ?? What percentage of the original MSRP will be retained ?
(http://ducatiseattle.smugmug.com/photos/435310996_GTVTp-M-1.jpg)
Quote from: Dave R on December 16, 2008, 11:47:15 PM
If all you compare is numbers I agree, there are better deals out there.
Here were our findings when we checked with a local Suzuki Only dealership in 2007 and asked for the "recommended" service intervals and alloted hours for all factory services up to 30,000 miles, this is what they told us. Please read that this is the "recommended" services from both Ducati and Suzuki. Most owners of Japanese bikes will admit they tend to ignore many of the "recommended" services as long as it's running ok... Ducati's admittedly do not like to be ignored... Here are some hard numbers that may shed a different light..
Last comment, what is the value of a well maintained used 2007 1098 with 30,000 vs a 2007 GSXR1000 with 30K ?? What percentage of the original MSRP will be retained ?
(http://ducatiseattle.smugmug.com/photos/435310996_GTVTp-M-1.jpg)
This is an interesting take on the whole cost of ownership thing. The big difference isn't that the owners of the Japanese brands are not doing the recommended services but rather doing them themselves. At least in regards to the regular maintenence. How hard is it to change the oil and adjust the chain etc.
With a Ducati it's considerably more involved with regular valve adjustments etc.
With respect to the above mentioned schedules. The vast majority of Ducatis DO NOT fall into those recommended schedules. Only in 2007 did Ducati step up and increase the mileage for required maintainence schedules and some required part replacement intervals. Anybody read any stories around here of some Ducati dealers not going by the new recommended procedures that reduce by appox 50% the maintainence cost. And, though the recommended maintainence schedules may now be a little less for the most recent range of Ducatis in comparison ...... there is still the factor of expensive engine components that need replaced in the Ducati, but not so for the Japanese rocketships.
Quote from: Centerline on December 17, 2008, 08:20:45 AM
there is still the factor of expensive engine components that need replaced in the Ducati, but not so for the Japanese rocketships.
can you list some examples ?
flux capacitor
Quote from: Statler on December 17, 2008, 08:46:06 AM
flux capacitor
Of course !! the fluxio capacitorie !
other that that, any other bits ?
What it really comes down to is that preferences, tastes, opinions are like noses, everyone's got one. We all have our reasons for purchasing a particular bike; so in the end regardless of number, stats, magazine testing, or what anyone else says, each of us is 100% right when it comes to our bikes.
I love riding and I love all bikes. Maybe that's why I've owned 4 in the last 4 years. Rented a 50cc scooter in the Bahamas and had a big smile riding that thing to death. I had cruiser folks ask me when I'm upgrading my 883 to a big twin. Sorry, it might be hard to believe but I actually like my little Sporty and not interested in "upgrading" it. Same thing with the Monster, why didn't you get an SV - lower price, maintenance, dealership network, blah, blah [roll] . Well, 1) I had an SV (loved the bike :'( ) 2) duh, it's not a Monster.
my .02 worth...
HD builds what their customer base wants, which is a very retro-centric design. Admittedly, this is because for many years(read AMF years), they didn't do any real R&D, so that is what their customers were used to. Ride a Sporty from anytime in the early 80's, then compare it to one from this year. The difference is stunning. You take an AMF HD for a short ride, by the time you get back, you need to tighten nearly everything on it, it's falling apart. HD didn't really recover from the AMF years until the late 90's. If anything, HD is great example of knowing your brand image is & sticking to it. Even the XR1200 is a look back at the X-R750's & HD's flat track history. Don't know about you, but I grew up on flat track racing.
Quote from: Speedbag on December 16, 2008, 03:44:16 PM
;D
In some ways Ducatis and Harleys are very much alike. ;)
I have to admit that my Street Rod makes me somewhat of an outcast with the "real" H-D crowd too. Whatever. [roll] Ride what you want and fill the garage with all flavors, that's my motto.
I've never understood this either. I like the Street Rod, but I like the V-Rod Muscle even better. Test rode one at Harley's 105th and really liked it.
Quote from: Dave R on December 16, 2008, 11:47:15 PM
If all you compare is numbers I agree, there are better deals out there.
Here were our findings when we checked with a local Suzuki Only dealership in 2007 and asked for the "recommended" service intervals and alloted hours for all factory services up to 30,000 miles, this is what they told us. Please read that this is the "recommended" services from both Ducati and Suzuki. Most owners of Japanese bikes will admit they tend to ignore many of the "recommended" services as long as it's running ok... Ducati's admittedly do not like to be ignored... Here are some hard numbers that may shed a different light..
Last comment, what is the value of a well maintained used 2007 1098 with 30,000 vs a 2007 GSXR1000 with 30K ?? What percentage of the original MSRP will be retained ?
(http://ducatiseattle.smugmug.com/photos/435310996_GTVTp-M-1.jpg)
The big problem here is that the Ducati dealers are not sticking to this service schedule. Just try to take your 1098 in for the 7000 mile service and see what happens... The Ducati schedule says it will cost you around $270. The dealer says more like $500 to $800... The lower cost maintenance advertised by Ducati is a farse!
Quote from: flynbulldog on December 17, 2008, 02:34:39 PM
The big problem here is that the Ducati dealers are not sticking to this service schedule. Just try to take your 1098 in for the 7000 mile service and see what happens... The Ducati schedule says it will cost you around $270. The dealer says more like $500 to $800... The lower cost maintenance advertised by Ducati is a farse!
Actually this whole subject has gotten beaten to death in my opinion.. As has been explained on many forums, there are two services at 7500 miles. An "A" service and a "B" service.. both those added together add up to 5.5 hours.. The original article written on some e zine was missleading. The hours I have shown are what is recommended by Ducati.
Your right Dave it was misleading. The article clearly stated that the cost for the 7500 mile service was around $260 and they made it sound like that was all that was recommended by Ducati.
But I do see where they list a Valve service of around $300 that was never included in the research that the authors conducted.
Now, I'm sure the dealer is going to quote a price that includes both services when a customer inquires so the comparisons that they made are not inclusive and misleading.
But all of this doesn't stop some dealers from charging excessive amounts for services, unfortunately I've been at the wrong end of a few of those transactions...
A $1200 bill for a 2 valve monster has left me a little bitter.
What do you mean, "give us some examples of expensive engine parts that are up for scheduled replacement" ?
If I say it is so, then it is ;). But, no the flux capacitator does not need replacement.
I confess, though .... by myself, I started years ago the ufounded myth that Ducatis are high dollar maintainance machines. Sorry.
Quote from: Dave R on December 17, 2008, 08:38:27 AM
can you list some examples ?
The obvious one that relates to this discussion is the cam belts - at 30k miles a Ducati will have needed two sets of cambelts, the Jap bike will still be happily running it's original camchain. On the other hand, by the time both bikes get to 60k miles, the Jap bike will have needed new camchains and tensioner blades, at I suspect about the same sort of money (for parts and fitting) as the Ducati owner has spent on belts in the same period.
I guess a dry clutch Ducati is probably going to be about due for a clutch at 30k as well, depending on how hard the rider is on the clutch (some guys will be doing their _second_ replacement by 30k...)
I can't think of anything else that applies, unless you want to start talking about things like flaking 4V rockers...
big
Or maybe the expensive shim kit to actually do a valve job. I suspect the japanese bikes may just need the typical feeler guauge to adjust them.
Also while it *may* even out at 60k......bikes often don't see that type of mileage.
Quote from: MrIncredible on December 17, 2008, 05:57:28 PM
Or maybe the expensive shim kit to actually do a valve job. I suspect the japanese bikes may just need the typical feeler guauge to adjust them.
They still need a collection of shims to swap in and out to get the clearances right, but they only need "opener" shims, not opener and closers, and their shims are not as complex a shape as Ducati ones (and, I think, they're interchangeable between different manufacturers, so a Jap bike mechanic can do multiple brands with one shimset)
QuoteAlso while it *may* even out at 60k......bikes often don't see that type of mileage.
True.
big
Quote from: bigiain on December 17, 2008, 06:16:26 PM
They still need a collection of shims to swap in and out to get the clearances right, but they only need "opener" shims, not opener and closers, and their shims are not as complex a shape as Ducati ones (and, I think, they're interchangeable between different manufacturers, so a Jap bike mechanic can do multiple brands with one shimset)
True.
big
The Big 4 all use different style of shims and most likely change the design more often than Ducati.. That is speaking from past experiences, hey I sound like many of you ! Honestly I haven't paid much attention to Big4 for the past 16 years but I rent out space and Dyno use to a tuner who specializes in them.. I will go ask about valve clearance adjustment procedure and report tomorrow.. Speaking of the past, things do change.
Quote from: flynbulldog on December 17, 2008, 04:02:33 PM
Your right Dave it was misleading. The article clearly stated that the cost for the 7500 mile service was around $260 and they made it sound like that was all that was recommended by Ducati.
But I do see where they list a Valve service of around $300 that was never included in the research that the authors conducted.
Now, I'm sure the dealer is going to quote a price that includes both services when a customer inquires so the comparisons that they made are not inclusive and misleading.
But all of this doesn't stop some dealers from charging excessive amounts for services, unfortunately I've been at the wrong end of a few of those transactions...
A $1200 bill for a 2 valve monster has left me a little bitter.
Here is what the DNA web site shows.... the claim of 50% less maintenance was based on one of the easiest bikes to maintain.... a 695 vs a 620 Monster It should have never been construed as 50% less for every model, we made sure we never mis represented it and I think Ducati made sure to include the fine print too..
(http://ducatiseattle.smugmug.com/photos/438863009_cUKTB-X2.jpg)
This is from the Ducati site. I highlighted several things that are pretty clear ALL Ducatis are part of these reduced cost.
OWNING A DUCATI IS EASIER THAN EVER BEFORE
With service intervals extended to 7,500 miles (12,000) and fewer parts required, owning a Ducati is easier than ever before*.
Reducing the cost of service when you visit your Ducati dealer for maintenance is one way to measure the new quality of Ducati. It also contributes immensely to making the Ducati ownership experience as satisfying as the Ducati riding experience.
Research and development is the number one investment at the Ducati factory. This investment in performance and quality includes our factory processes, machinery and the people who build each Ducati. By 'engineering-in' quality through design, materials and testing, every Ducati owner will enjoy significant and quantifiable improvements in every Ducati motorcycle.
To a rider, the best measure of quality is by the riding experience. You can feel a new smoothness to the legendary Ducati L-Twin, a more progressive nature to the powerful brakes and more confident road holding in every turn. Reliability and quality â€" one ride is all the proof you will need.
*See your Ducati dealer for details.
Quote from: Dave R on December 18, 2008, 12:42:46 AM
The Big 4 all use different style of shims and most likely change the design more often than Ducati..
You may well be right, my Honda uses screw and locknut adjusters, so does my girls Kawasaki, so I've never actually had to deal personally with shims on Japanese sportsbike motors, but I've got a distinct memory of one of my friends using Kawasaki shims in _something_ else... I can't remember what though - he goes thru bikes like they're fashion accessories so I can never keep track of what he's riding now, never mind what he _used_ to ride... For all I know he was using the Kawa shims in his collection of Fiats...
big
I have about 13K on the 3 year old Sporty. Dealer cost $0. Followed the maintenance schedule. Very very basic: fluid changes, check/adjust primary & secondary belt/chain tension, etc. [thumbsup]
Recently had 6K service for the monster. Think it was a little under $600. :o Ok, funk that, I'm going to buy the manual and try to do the belts myself next time (I think valves are beyond my skill level for now). Manual is $170 :o :o Are you freaking kidding me. Got another manual instead. ;)
I also know that some of the Japanese bikes and the Rotax that powers RSVR's requires removal of the camshaft for shim changing IIRC. My Suzuki GS1150 had screw & locknut adjusters. Hard part was working the valve cover off the motor with the 1/8" clearance once you lifted to clear the cam gears.
NYCm - Get the manual the 2V valve check & adjustment really simple, as is the belt changes ~
JM