I have always read with a certain amount of Interest about ABS and the general lack of acceptance or take up by the Motorcycle community, now I know there are some areas that do embrace them, Large Cruiser Bikes and BMW has found a large number of there Customer demand ABS.
But as soon as people talk about ABS for the everyday rider, Which I assume the Majority of the membership of this board falls into that category EG: Some Commuting with a blast on the weekend/days off and maybe the odd track day.
It would seem that the great/vast majority do not want ABS or it would appear to think it does more harm than good.
Recently on a couple of Australian Forums when the Issue was raised the Forums were very divided into the "do not want" and the "Want" Camps, and the "Do not want" outnumbered everyone else by nearly 10 to 1
The Arguments for and against were very heated to the point where one Forum shut the Topic down, The owner of the Forum (Two Wheels Magazine) The Editor raised the issue in his monthly editorial about how much the motorcycle community refuses to embrace ABS. In fact Two wheels Australia magazine has announced that unless the bike is equipped with or has ABS as an available option it will be excluded from there Bike of the Year Judging next year.
So, I wanted to see a discussion from a world perspective, this Forum has a number of members from all around the world, would you have taken ABS for your bike (not only Monsters/Ducati's, any bike you have or do own) if it was available for a reasonable price as an upgrade? I know I would have taken it.
I know that pro riders can out-brake the ABS systems, but on a damp road and some Moron pulls out in front of you.........
Over to you [moto]
I have yet to ride a bike with ABS so I'm lacking an opinion as of yet...
Anyone ridden ABS?
I have never ridden a bike with ABS.
I would gladly have paid a small premium for it.
When I was taking the Military Sportbike Rider's Course, pretty much everyone locked up the brakes at some point or another during the emergency stop drills.
The only two exceptions were the bikes equipped with ABS.
I picked the brain of a BMW rider while we had some down time and I asked him about the ABS on his bike. He said that its a lot like the ABS in his car, that is, you don't really even know its there until you do a panic stop and feel the stutter.
His other comment, and apparently this is pretty common, is that having had a bike with ABS, he won't buy another rode bike without it.
I don't want ABS. I think the Monster has it about right. The ability to lock up a front wheel if desired combined with great feel, and more or less no ability to lock the rear wheel.
mitt
My last 3 BMWs had /have ABS. My current K1200S has ABS and I really like the fact that I can grab a hand full of brake and not go Super Man.
The brakes on my S4Rs were the most difficult aspect of learning to ride the bike safely at speed.
I went from 3 years of riding 3 different BMWs w, ABS to my 1st Ducati and had 2 minor crashes in a short span of time after I got the S4RS due to braking knowledge.
The more I rode the S4Rs the faster I could ride and brake safely.
I can still get on my K1200S and feel confident that I can ride as fast as I want and brake as hard as I want and not have any problems .
I like the intensity of the Ducati brakes both on my S4RS and 1098R but the ABS brakes mean I can concentrate on other things about my riding other than my braking points and amount of brake pressure.
I guess that would make me in favor of ABS.
Incidentally , I never have been down on any of the BMWs , but have been down riding at least 3 times on my #1 S4Rs , none on the " R ." Dolph
I'm all for it - can't understand why not. Well, on second thoughts, maybe ABS take away some of our "responsibility" and make safe riding "too easy". I would probably go faster if I knew I had ABS, could be dangerous.....
Last I heard Ducati talk about this they tried to focus on light weight as a more important safety feature. I'm not sure one would exclude the other.
Have been looking for a bike that will carry some gear, and be good for longer day trips or overnight. I may well end up with a Multistrada, because of light weight, handling, and seating position. I am still considering other bikes only because they have ABS. I just wonder about that one panic stop, where a relative newb like me can lock the brakes. I will make it a point to practice more, but for the money, ABS ought to be an option. I would gladly pay more for it. Not ready for a 1200 BMW (heavy), like leg room (Tiger great but a little top heavy). But I'd happily pay to have it on my 696.
With cars, after advanced driving and racing schools, when I practiced, I could stop better without ABS. For 90% of drivers (including me at the moment), ABS is better. I suspect the same is true for bikes. This assumes, of course, that it works.
I think BMW has it right.
It basically comes on all of their bikes, and if you don't like it, it can be shut off. I think it adds to the safety of riding, and that's not a bad thing.
It will be really interesting to see how it plays on Honda's 09 CBR XXX RRs - both 600 and 1000 will have ABS. From what I've read it unloads the rider and drops lap times (on top riders to begin with!!).
Quote from: mitt on December 28, 2008, 02:19:52 PM
I don't want ABS. I think the Monster has it about right. The ability to lock up a front wheel if desired combined with great feel, and more or less no ability to lock the rear wheel.
mitt
Why on earth would anyone desire to lock up the front wheel? That would serve no purpose except to eliminate the ability to steer and to keep the wheels under the bike, both of which would assure a spill in short order. Furthermore, on clean dry pavement a Monster would almost surely do a stoppie (or an endo) before locking up the front wheel. ;)
In situations where traction is compromised or limited (such as touching the brakes in a corner in the wet), ABS will GREATLY reduce the likelihood of the tires losing grip. A single instance of ABS saving skin/gear/bike will pay back whatever the option cost initially. That's why many motorcyclists who have had their ABS activate say that they will never buy another bike without it. [thumbsup]
And contrary to the belief held by some, ABS will not increase stopping distance on dry pavement (at least not on bikes such as the Monster or BMW R1200R), nor will it prevent a stoppie. ABS simply prevents wheel lockup. During a hard stop, the front tire has enough traction (again, on the type of bikes we're discussing) to lift the rear wheel completely off the ground, without the front wheel locking up. And that, folks, is as hard as you can stop in any case, and ABS does not affect that ability at all.
The Ducati ST3S and ST4S came with a very impressive ABS system that I'm sorry to report is no longer offered. :'(
Quote from: MrIncredible on December 28, 2008, 03:36:28 PM
I think BMW has it right.
It basically comes on all of their bikes, and if you don't like it, it can be shut off. I think it adds to the safety of riding, and that's not a bad thing.
Agreed. I've never owned a BMW but have ridden several and made the ABS activate just to see how it worked. Especially on a large, heavy bike, it was fantastic. I've locked up my front wheel before on an sv650, and 3 broken metacarpals later, I'd like to have at least the option of ABS.
I'm torn. i would love to have abs on the monster (or any other bike, for that matter), but i also love the simplicity of a standard system.
A first thought I'd say no to ABS, but then I have never ridden with ABS so I really shouldn't have an opinion.
The brakes on my last two monsters are so damn good, so powerful, and so easy to use/modulate I can't imagine them being any better.
Does it add weight? How much?
LA
I've ridden BMW's with ABS, and I like the system.
I would opt in favor of ABS on a new motorcycle, especially if the system could simply be deactivated by the rider whenever desired. A minor weight penalty (10 pounds or less) and a reasonable increase in MSRP would be fair.
For reference purposes, Suzuki's 2009 V-Strom 650 is available with or without ABS. ABS is a $500 option (the base model retails for $6999), and it adds a nominal 7 pounds to the curb weight. I'd take that deal and choose the ABS on a Suzuki or a bike of any other make. [thumbsup]
I think ABS would be great, though I have to admit based on my experience with ABS on my car, I would likely never have it engage on the bike.
In my car, the only time the traction control and ABS have come on has been in inclement weather, and being the wuss that I am, I don't ride when it's raining or snowing out.
But, that said, having ABS there just in case is great. The only negatives would be cost and problems associated with poor implementation.
I've never ridden an ABS bike, but it seems like a good idea. If it works well on a SBK under track conditions, as mentioned in an earlier post about Honda, then I can't see a downside. I guess added weight could be an issue on a Ducati style bike (as opposed to a Goldwing)...but I'm guessing the added system is pretty light.
No ABS vs ABS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zv3Sacl7JQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zv3Sacl7JQ)
The main things that people kept coming up with was:
1. Lack of feel from the braking system (not good for track bikes)
2. loss of control of the braking system
3. added complexity of repair or maintenance
4. added weight
5. expense at time of purchase
6. They don't really work on bikes anyway
I argued the points like this:
1. So, you may lose a little feel, (Although the guys I spoke to who have ABS equipped bikes have said the brakes on there bikes still felt the same as there non equipped bikes) but I suspect a little loss of feel is a small price to pay when weighed up against the benefit of more control on that damp road when that mindless moron pulls out in front of you. Track bikes should not enter into the discussion, most track bikes I know are not road legal anyway (No lights or mirrors, slick tyres, open exhausts)
In our Monsoon season, I would love to have a monster with ABS, I'll take any help I can get on wet roads and suicidal drivers, talent, practice and safe riding can only help so much.
2. I didn't understand that claim, you still control it, it's only when the wheel locks that the system steps in to unlock a locked wheel, but you still control how much braking power to apply and when.
3. Bosch have claimed that there ABS system requires no maintenance, it's a sealed for life component, I have asked a couple of BMW owners who own older bikes with ABS, they have had no added expense or drama's because of ABS. Modern ABS systems are very reliable and if they fail, your brakes still work, it just means the wheel will lock if you run out of talent.
4. 5 or 10kg's of extra weight for the added safety? miss a couple of lunch's for pity's sake!
5. OK some are expensive, but most ABS options/upgrade are getting quite reasonable, it amazes me when people won't think twice about $2k or so for some wheels or an exhaust system, but $500 to $1000 for a very usable piece of safety equipment, and that is over the top expensive?!?!
6. What a load of horseshit! the above video proves that point.
I can understand people with track bikes not wanting ABS, but how hard would it be to remove it? or stick with bikes that never had it anyway? most track bikes people modify to take racing anyway, so remove or disable the ABS system and your ready to go racing.
I'm not saying it should be standard, but at least make it an option and available for more models than it currently is now.
My dad has a Harley and a BMW that both have ABS brakes and i have ridden both,you can never even feel them when you stop. Along with that i have ridden along side my dad where we are hauling ass and a light goes yellow and where he can hit the bakes and stop clear of the intersection i have to judge if i can stop short enough or if i have to punch through the light either situation is not a good one and not something i enjoy doing. If my S4rs came with the ABS option i would have gotten it in a heartbeat with out consideration of the cost.
That video is kind of bullshit.
Yeah, jam on your brakes as hard as you can and you'll do the same thing. He intentionally locked the wheels for the demo.
However, you can do proper panic brakeing (aka knowing how to ride a motorcycle, right.) and you can still panic stop in the wet.
Spend the $500 - $1000 on training and you'll be a better rider all around, not just in stopping.
Quote from: wbeck257 on December 29, 2008, 06:23:34 AM
That video is kind of bullshit.
Yeah, jam on your brakes as hard as you can and you'll do the same thing. He intentionally locked the wheels for the demo.
However, you can do proper panic brakeing (aka knowing how to ride a motorcycle, right.) and you can still panic stop in the wet.
Spend the $500 - $1000 on training and you'll be a better rider all around, not just in stopping.
Sure, but how many people are that good? How many will get that good, even with extra training and practice, that they could outbrake a computer in the wet?
I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy when my ass is on the line. I'd much rather have the OPTION to have extra safety equipment.
Quote from: swampduc on December 28, 2008, 04:21:30 PM
I've locked up my front wheel before on an sv650, and 3 broken metacarpals later, I'd like to have at least the option of ABS.
But you DO have the option, as the SV650 has optional ABS
http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/SV650AK8 (http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/SV650AK8)
It looks like the option adds $600 to the sticker price, but as others have pointed out if it saves you then it will repay the $600 on the first avoided accident.
Quote from: swampduc on December 29, 2008, 06:32:07 AM
Sure, but how many people are that good? How many will get that good, even with extra training and practice, that they could outbrake a computer in the wet?
I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy when my ass is on the line. I'd much rather have the OPTION to have extra safety equipment.
I'm not saying you can outbrake ABS -- you probably can't. But you can still get the job done.
A shitty rider with ABS is still a shitty rider.
Useing a computer as a crutch on a motorcycle will only save your ass so many times...
Actually knowing what you are doing you'll probably last a little bit longer.
Have never tried ABS on a bike, and not sure if ABS options on all bikes work the same way, but I think this vid gives a good idea of the usefulness of ABS-- Honda's CBR1000RR ABS, which electronically activates braking on both front and rear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlI_zTU7Gq8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlI_zTU7Gq8)
Technical deets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTc19PFAiXs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTc19PFAiXs)
Don't like it, don't want it. As long as the manufacturer gives an option - like Kawasaki C14 or ?BMW? used to - pay extra if you want it - no problems. If it gets shoved down our throats - then it will be just one more thing that will have to get removed/replaced.
I locked my front once, but thankfully learned enough from the MSF to let go. I can see the advantage, specially for new riders or someone upgrading to more toucjy brakes, of ABS. For example, I know someone that upgraded from an S2R 1000 to a Hypermotard that had a bad accident when he locked the brakes. I think some here can testify that the HM brakes are touchy. That said, I would not mind being able to shut it off for the track and on for day to day riding.
If it were available as an option on my bike, I would get it. Most of the time I would not need it. However, for that one time a deer jumps in front of me while I am riding around on wet mountain roads with fallen leaves, it would be totally worth it.
Sure, you can panic stop a non-ABS bike without locking up the wheels. But can you stop in as short a distance as the ABS bike? On wet, slippery roads? I think there are very few riders that can say that.
Quote from: Bill in OKC on December 29, 2008, 08:42:07 AM
Don't like it, don't want it. As long as the manufacturer gives an option - like Kawasaki C14 or ?BMW? used to - pay extra if you want it - no problems. If it gets shoved down our throats - then it will be just one more thing that will have to get removed/replaced.
Do you have the same opinion of traction control, like on the 1198R ?
Quote from: ptooey on December 29, 2008, 06:57:18 AM
Have never tried ABS on a bike, and not sure if ABS options on all bikes work the same way, but I think this vid gives a good idea of the usefulness of ABS-- Honda's CBR1000RR ABS, which electronically activates braking on both front and rear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlI_zTU7Gq8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlI_zTU7Gq8)
That's a good video. I can't see how this is anything but good for the average street/track bike. The system appears to be unobtrusive, and allows for maximum front/rear braking efficiency in all conditions...dry, wet, sand, etc. Sign me up...I already thought the 2008 CBR1000RR was pretty bad ass. Seems to be better for '09.
I will say I don't think this ABS system has a place in the upper levels of racing (WSBK, MotoGP, British SBK, etc). It seems OK for club level racing, since they're not pros. Similar to traction control, it lowers the skill and finesse needed to be fast.
First, there are different types of ABS. The ABS on older BMWs is terrible in terms of feel. It is a powered system with no feedback. They may have changed this in recent years but I have not ridden any of the latest models with ABS. The ABS system on the Ducati ST works much differently. It simply bleeds off pressure when you reach the point of lock. It has much better feel and would be my choice if I wanted ABS.
Second, the last time I saw magazine tests of ABS equipped bikes showed that the bikes could be stopped faster WITHOUT ABS that with ABS.
Third, ABS and traction control will not allow you to ride in slippery conditions without knowing how to properly handle a motorcycle. You can and will crash in a turn while braking or accelerating. The ABS and traction control systems may limit the amount of power or braking but will not help you manage the balance of that power with cornering forces. They assume that 100% of the available traction is theirs. So if you grab the brakes on an ABS equipped bike on slippery leaves while in a turn, you will go down just as quickly as you would on a non-ABS equipped bike (possibly faster because you are lulled into a false sense of security by your ABS and don't try to properly modulate your brakes).
Fourth, in the dirt you WANT to be able to lock up the wheels so ABS is a disadvantage in those circumstances.
ABS may save you in the right conditions or it may lead you to crash with its false sense of security and poor road feel. Either way money spent on learning how to ride properly will out weigh money spent on ABS any day.
Quote from: wbeck257 on December 29, 2008, 06:23:34 AM
That video is kind of bullshit.
Yeah, jam on your brakes as hard as you can and you'll do the same thing. He intentionally locked the wheels for the demo.
However, you can do proper panic brakeing (aka knowing how to ride a motorcycle, right.) and you can still panic stop in the wet.
Spend the $500 - $1000 on training and you'll be a better rider all around, not just in stopping.
I've read about any number of accidents on this board and TOB where riders locked up the front and went down.
Panic stops tend not to be rational things, and.....IMO, it's one thing to practice braking hard. It's another thing to practice
unexpectedly braking hard-how does one even do that? Hire a friend to randomly pull out in front of you on your commute?
Quote from: oldjackbob on December 28, 2008, 03:47:15 PM
Why on earth would anyone desire to lock up the front wheel? That would serve no purpose except to eliminate the ability to steer and to keep the wheels under the bike, both of which would assure a spill in short order.
I wasn't clear in my post - kind of hard to explain. But, IMO, you have to work pretty hard at locking up the front wheel or doing an endo - a lot of room for levels of brake intensity and good feedback for the rider. Therefore, ABS isn't needed in the same way it is for a car that is on ice. Also, in my experience with other riders, a lot who want ABS on a moto want to prevent the rear from locking up - and on a monster, that is hard to do.
mitt
Quote from: MrIncredible on December 29, 2008, 10:38:36 AM
I've read about any number of accidents on this board and TOB where riders locked up the front and went down.
Panic stops tend not to be rational things, and.....IMO, it's one thing to practice braking hard. It's another thing to practice unexpectedly braking hard-how does one even do that? Hire a friend to randomly pull out in front of you on your commute?
You practice hard braking so that you don't have to think about what you need to do to a panic stop.
You ride with high awareness of what is happening, and expect shit to happen like that.
And you practice, practice, and practice. Eventually it becomes muscle memory.
It is like shooting in self defense. If you have to think about it, you are dead.
I think a lot of people think of ABS as the be all and end all of of braking safety, to me it's just another tool to assist you, it won't stop you crashing, it won't help you if you grab a handful of brake while leaned over on a wet road.
It has been shown, with practice, that the ABS systems can be out braked, pro riders can also out brake the ABS systems, again, I'm not claiming them to be the be all and end all of braking systems.
But, I think it will assist some/most riders:
* Don't have access to better training, Rider training is very limited in Australia, if you live in a Capital city, your OK, but in my case for me to get better training I have to go 2500 km's to my nearest capital to get to a rider training course.
* Riders who commute, most of my km's each year are racked up in the daily grind of to and fro to work, I have to ride in less than Ideal conditions, rain, cold, whatever is out there, I have to ride in it, I then have to allow for the Idiots in there cages with a death wish all around me, I'd swear some of these Morons want to kill you!
* The car that pulls out in front of you, the child running across the road, there are so many scenarios where there is just no time to get the bike into it's best position for maximum braking power EG: Gently squeeze the lever, wait for the weight to transfer and suspension to compress, feed in more braking power.
For us mere Mortals sometimes the instincts just take over and we grab a handful of lever and a foot full of rear brake, Oh Bugger! wheel(s) locks and down we go.
I think ABS is just another tool to assist you in staying upright, it can not replace good training and a healthy attitude to your road craft, and there are times where it may be unsuitable (off road for example) I agree, make it switchable, although for a bike like a CBR1000RR, A switchable system will most likely never be switched off, (It's very rare someone will take a bike like a CBR1000RR off road, it does happen, but it is very rare)
I also think if your stupid enough to go out and ride stupid in slippery conditions with a false sense of security that ABS will save you in all circumstances, then your an Idiot and a Darwin award nominee.
But an Interesting discussion thus far [thumbsup]
Here's an interesting ABS demo video that was put out by H-D. It shows some of the advantages of ABS on slippery patches.
[please don't turn this into another H-D bashing festival. video is posted for illustrative purposes.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgQYgHkxtc4&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgQYgHkxtc4&NR=1)
A touring bike, or a cruiser, sure, why not?
A sport bike, no thank you.
I would want it on a touring (or sport-touring) bike.
more likely to be riding in wet weather where it would really help.
A few years back wife and I were riding to vegas...me on a 900SS, her on a borrowed F650GS with ABS.
traffic stopped suddenly on the freeway ahead of us...we both grabbed brakes, she stopped much shorter distance than me....and without the pucker factor.
(could be i suck at braking too... :P)
Quote from: wbeck257 on December 29, 2008, 11:21:59 AM
You practice hard braking so that you don't have to think about what you need to do to a panic stop.
You ride with high awareness of what is happening, and expect shit to happen like that.
And you practice, practice, and practice. Eventually it becomes muscle memory.
It is like shooting in self defense. If you have to think about it, you are dead.
I've regularly gone to the local empty parking lot and practiced emergency braking.
This does *not* mean I'll necessarily do it right in a real live emergency.
Quote from: SA_S2R on December 29, 2008, 06:34:07 AM
But you DO have the option, as the SV650 has optional ABS
http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/SV650AK8 (http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/SV650AK8)
It looks like the option adds $600 to the sticker price, but as others have pointed out if it saves you then it will repay the $600 on the first avoided accident.
I do now, but didn't in 2004. I think, as others have suggested, that ABS might be most useful on sport-tourers and the like. On any bike, it's not a substitute for skill and technique, but it could be a useful augment. As MrInc said, practicing in controlled conditions, no matter how much muscle memory, doesn't guarantee that you'll execute in a panic situation. I go out to empty parking lots too, and I've locked up the rear wheel on my 696 several times. Hope I don't do that to the front in an emergency.