Ducati Monster Forum

San Francisco's in a bit of a budget mess this year, so I guess this makes me a villain. But sometimes sticking it to the man just feels right.

I walked out today to go to Munroe Motors for some parts, and as I turned onto 15th St I noticed a lone DPT Cushman coming up the street, issuing tickets en masse. It's Saturday morning, so a lot of cars parked overnight and their owners haven't been able to come out and feed the meters. And the DPT just queues meter maids up right before meter hours start so they can maximize revenue. They've been tagging as many people as possible, issuing very questionable citations (Chris from MotoJava got one for not curbing his wheels...he was parked on a flat block) as quickly as possible, then scurrying off to the next victim.

Having been victimized by the DPT on several occasions, I saw red. But instead of getting in the guy's face and risking arrest, I decided to beat him at his own game. I fished out my coin holder, surreptitiously walked up to every expired meter, and started feeding in quarters. I even managed to cross the street several times to feed meters on the other side without being seen. After saving 7 cars from tickets between South Van Ness and Mission, I decided to continue my altruism all the way to Valencia. In that block alone, I managed to save 10 people from expensive tickets. I made it to Valencia, stood on the corner waiting for the light to turn, and the meter maid pulled up...By that time I had run out of quarters, and had used my parking cards to save the last couple of vehicles. I made sure I was holding those parking cards in plain view as the meter maid pulled up to the intersection, scowled at me, then went on his way. Score one more for the little people.

Awesome [clap] But how much time does a quarter give you on the meters?  This sole reason is why I ride the bike now and no more car.  I was getting so many tickets in the city that it just wasn't worth it anymore. 

Just enough time for the meter maid to pass that car up. About 10 minutes around here.

Well done...

good on ya dq ... fook the dpt!!! [leo] [leo] [leo]

I tried that method once (being nice and and feeding the meter for a random citizen) in WC, the po wrote the ticket anyways. the po was extremely rude and asked if it was my car, i said no and po insinuated that if it was my car he would write me another ticket for "feeding the meter."

i tried calling and filing a complaint against the -ahem- but got the "S.T.F.U." from dispatch saying po was in the rite.

(http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/Fascism+Poster.bmp)

I've heard it's illegal to feed a meter that's not yours and that you can actually get cited for it.   [roll] on both counts... Don't know if that's true, so I'm careful not to be seen feeding meters.  I generally will give a meter a dime or a nickel or two if it's right next to mine and it's expired.  Payin' it forward...  [thumbsup]

It probably is...but it's only illegal if you get caught ;D

sweet!  [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Em just got one of those 'Non-curbed wheels' tickets on a flat street as well. They seem to be all about the greed these days. makes me kind of sick.

Metered parking nearly always has a time limit -- you cannot just keep stuffing quarters into the parking meter. If the meter (or signs) say, for example, "2 Hour Parking", you can not stay at that meter for more than two hours, no matter how much money you put into the meter.

Yup, yup.  I forgot about that.  And have many times.  I've erased a lot of chalk marks on my tires in my day.  [laugh]  They have a new system now though.  I still get tickets even if I don't see the chalk...  :P

Parking tickets are part of living in a big city, and I'm not necessarily opposed to it, despite the fact that meter-maids are Satan's spawn.  We should make more of an effort to discourage cars and encourage public transportation. When I lived in Copenhagen parking was like 65.00 USD a day.  It was insane.  And guess what--bicycling was really, really popular even in Denmark's winter.  Yeah, we've got hills, but they've got cold.  Buses, trains, etc. weren't all that much more prevalent than they were in SF.  The big difference was the bicycles.  And, no, they didn't have all sorts of super-safe bicycle only routes and the city footprint seemed about the same as SF--maybe even bigger.  They had signs on the buses saying to watch out for bicyclists.  Apparently all sorts of folks get run down on bikes as they exit the bus if they ain't lookin'. 

Just one gal's opinion.  I rarely take a car when going into SF and when I do.  It's generally not worth the headache or money. 

Typically if I cage it in, it's on a weeknight, or weekend, so....meters and parking aren't really an issue.

You just made my evening. Thank you! [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

Yes, yes yes. Cars are one of SF's biggest problems: too many of them in too small a space. And they've been my mortal enemy for years...on foot, on bicycles, and on the Duc. I'm in favor of things like $20 peak-hour bridge tolls, expensive parking spaces, and a city-imposed progressive vehicle registration surcharge.

But to my mind, there's a clear difference between creating incentives for good behavior and bilking people to alleviate a structural budget crisis...especially when the people you're bilking tend to be low-income or middle-income people who do nothing more heinous than wake up a little late...or fail to curb their wheels on a flat block. Policy is one thing, but arbitrary and capricious enforcement of that policy is unacceptable. And it's fun to stick it to 'em sometimes ;D

There's really nothing arbitrary about it.  They happen to everyone.  You park in a space within the metering times, don't move your car, and you get a ticket.  Parking permits should be available in the area for permanent residents.  I write a letter to fight my parking tickets every time.  Doesn't mean that I didn't deserve the ticket--it just means that like you, I try to fight the system...a little.   ;)

Now the wheel curbing deal I don't get...I've heard that DPT is cracking down, and this isn't the first time I've heard about someone getting a ticket for failure to curb their tires on "flat" ground.  I've been doing a little research but can't find anything.  I'm going to guess that there's a minimum slope percentage that makes the curbing thing kick in.  It's probably very low and looks "flat" to most of us. 

That's the arbitrary and capricious part (well, one of them). Chris did some research, and the CA vehicle code apparently requires wheel curbing if the road has more than a 3% grade. The block in question for his citation is absolutely flat. And several other vehicles that day had the same ticket on that block.

And there certainly is a gray area. What if someone pulls up in front of a business, parks, has no change, runs in to get change, and comes out to a meter maid issuing a citation? Sure, the letter of the law is one thing, but any lawyer will tell you that there are gray areas. And lately it seems like the DPT is exploiting those gray areas more than usual. Then there are the times that they're just plain wrong. Like the time a city crew painted a bus stop around my bike (which was in a motorcycle parking area) and they came along and cited me for parking in a bus stop.

The upside is that the DPT makes a LOT of mistakes on citations...especially when they write them by hand. That gives you grounds to challenge them. But it takes your time, and often it takes your money (if you lose, or is you use ticket assassin).

3% is a 3" rise in just over 8'-0" of horizontal travel.  That "looks" pretty damn flat, but it ain't.  Anything over 5% starts to make getting around in a wheelchair difficult...and you and I barely notice that when we're walking on it.  3% does seem a bit "flat" to have to curb your wheels, but at least it's not arbitrary.   3% is a solid number that you can sink your teeth into.  [laugh]

+ eleventy billion!!!!!   anarchy, anarchy, anarchy!!!!!

You can get grade maps for each street from DPT, which is now under the umbrella of MTA.  And that's all I'll say on that matter.   ;)

I got a 3% ticket for not curbing my wheels the two weeks ago.  But my hill is like a billion % grade.  And I'd actually curbed them--as I always do), but the van was so close to the curb that when I let go of the steering wheel, they straightened right up.  Damn power steering.  Grrrrr. . . $45 wasted. 

That is plain wrong.  But remember that you're dealing with a giant bureaucracy.  The people that do the paint aren't the people who ticket.  They likely (read:  almost certainly) failed to communicate with one another about when the paint was going in.  Also remember that the City employees you come into contact with on a daily basis aren't the decision makers.  They're generally the low men on the totem pole.  So they're gonna make mistakes.  Lots n' lots n' lots of 'em.

I agree with you in theory.  But frankly, if you have enough $ to own a car in SF, I'm having trouble finding the requisite sympathy.  I'm more concerned about those who can't pay rent or afford food.  But you're right that it seems mean.

Here's the other thing.  It's rare that the City makes focused policy decisions like what you're suggesting--i.e. let's increase traffic enforcement to make more $.  Here's what's likely goin' on.  Because of the budget crisis, individual departments' budgets are being cut.  The departments can fire people or find ways to increase revenue.  But the cuts are different for each department, so each department struggles with a solution.  As a result, you have people who normally aren't high-level policy makers struggling to find ways to increase revenue.  Increased ticketing enforcement is an easy place to increase revenue.  And what likely happens is that the low-on-the-totem pole guys are just told to increase enforcement.  They end up making the decision about how to do that.  The result is what looks like a City policy is likely little more than a general order that leaves the discretion as to how it's implemented to the low-on-the-totem pole guy.   And often, that's the last guy you want making policy.

That's a long way of saying that a budget crisis (particularly one where there are emergency cuts like we've been having) doesn't always lead to well-thought policy or implementation of that policy.   

(http://wsthune.public.iastate.edu/cps/traditional/brain.gif)

warren ... as for the city not increasing ticking to raise revenue ... perhaps you are correct (though i REALLY doubt it). 

i know for a fact that three other bay area cities have given direct orders to police officers to increase their ticket numbers in order to raise funds through fines, to help raise revenue.  i know this from friends who are police officers in these cities. 

for the most part, the police officers don't like this directive ... but i am sure that the parking meter maids LOVE this.

That's exactly what happened in the bus stop case. No signage about painting a bus stop, etc. The hearing officer saw my pictures and asked to keep them because, in her words, this was "the stupidest citation I've (sic) ever seen." She kept my photos to have an example of a textbook case of what NOT to do ;D


That really depends on the neighborhood. Most of the relatively poor people around my part of The Mission do have cars...not because they can afford them, but mostly because they can't afford not to have them. A lot of 'em make their living with their cars, and many of them work in places (e.g. Bayview, SOMA, etc) that really aren't accessible by transit. Wait a sec, we're talking about MUNI here...NO neighborhood is accessible by MUNI ;D

That's not quite what I was saying.  I'm sure that they've gotten instructions to increase ticketing.  *How* that  increased enforcement occurs is likely left up to people who don't ususally make policy decisions, and maybe even up to individual DPT enforcers.  Thus, you see stuff like what Joe was talking about.  I seriously doubt one of the higher-ups said "let's start really getting people with the curbed wheels statute."  More likely, the directive came down from on-high to just to increase revenue, leaving the implementation up to others. 



Hogwash.  I know that neighborhood.  No "relatively poor" person needs a $30-40K car, which describes an inordinate number of vehicles around.  I'm amazed at the parking lot in the public housing Valencia Gardens.  Now, when DPT start ticketing every $2k beat-to-shit 1991 Toytota Corolla in Bayview, I'm gonna feel some empathy.  Otherwise, that's the cost of having a car in the City.  Too bad, so sad. 

That said, if they start ticketing consistently sidewalk parking for motorcycles I'm gonna break my foot off in someone's ass.   

I call hogwash on your hogwash ;D Take a stroll down 15th Street sometime. These aren't the Valencia Garden dwellers with $5000 worth of spinner rims on their SUVs. These are the beat-to-shit used cars, often bought from the used car dealers in the area, for a couple grand. The nice cars tend to be in garages around here.

I feel no pity.

It's not some sort of surprise that somehow you drove into the gawdamn city, and it's also not some well kept secret that in said city, there are parking meters which require real live change to actually work. This is not news. Maybe people should just try being prepared for shit they know they're going to have to do?

I keep the car stocked with change, for parking meters. It's not hard.


I also don't buy anyone needs a car that badly. One of the techs who works for me....spends two hours on a damn bus every day. Each way. Yeah it sucks, but you know what? You don't *need* a car. Bicycle, walk, learn to get by.

ciao warren ... my bad for not understanding your original comment. 

anarchy in the UK USA!!!  [thumbsup] [evil]

I call hogwash on your calling hogwash on my hogwash.  And I feel no sympathy for folks that get tix.  That said, screwing with the DPT guy and feeding all the meters is satisfying enough that it was well worth whatever it cost ya.   ;D  

I hate this budget bullshit.   >:(

Ditto on that. The budget certainly affects you, being an at-will city employee and all.

I've learned a bit of nuance when it comes to tickets. I'm usually the guy calling the DPT to tow people out of my driveway, and I friggin hate that our society gives people few other options besides cars. But yes, there are people who have no other options...try having two or three jobs and spending several hours a day on transit. And it's very easy for us relatively well-off people with no kids (well, until Spawn of Spidey comes along, right on schedule, in a week), garages for our cars, and disposable income to pay those parking fines to scoff at others. But when they start tagging us for parking between cars or for parking on sidewalks, we tend to get upset ;)

Let's leave it at this: sticking it to the man....any version of the man...is fun, no matter what the context.

What bites is that instead of the city providing a solution, they opt to punish for profit to fill a budget. That is bullshit.

People are driving facing nasty consequences because they can't make it work otherwise.
If it was safe to ride bikes, people would. If it was viable to take public traspo, people would. It's better than some places, but really is not that viable if you don't happen to be on the BART corridor. 

Better examples:  (http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/10/02/transportation-tuesday-top-10-cities-for-public-transit/)
Moscow, Paris, New York, Tokyo, London, Vancouver, Toronto, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Berlin, Madrid, Florence, Portland... 

We got sprawl. That's the problem.

1)  It's not punishment.  It's enforcement.
2)  It's not for profit.
3)  What are the nasty consequences drivers are facing?
4)  It is safe to ride bikes.  Just not in the City.  But it's not safe to do anything in the City -- ride, bike, drive, walk, leave your apartment, etc.  It's an urban environment.  If people don't like it, they should leave and go hang out in Burlingame.  Or in the Inland Empire.  Or Ohio. 
5)  It is viable to take public transport within SF (which is what we're talking about).  Until last month, the Blonde lived without a car since 1996 (and no moto).  And I was without one for 5 years. 
6)   I doubt many of the "poor people" that Joe was talking about live in SF, have a car and commute to a job outside the City.  Otherwise, they'd live outside the city.  In fact, even if the person being ticketed is a commuter, then it's like I said earlier -->  that's the cost of having a car in SF.
7)  SF does not have sprawl.  Other parts of the Bay Area do, but that's a different issue.  We're talking about ticketing in SF to SF residents. 

Enforcement is a fine. How is that not punishment?
Where does that money go? Does it go to creating a solution or to paying meter maids? Seems like an exacerbation IMO.
A solution would be a different way to travel. More buses, trains, cheaper taxis, people movers, more dispersion of BART/MUNI,  bike/Ped only streets, rails to trails connections, bike paths that are actually connected from point A to B instead the mish-mash jumble they are now... It could be safe to walk/ ride bikes here.

There are many places it's ridiculous to take the public transit.
When I say ridiculous, I mean: If it takes 1 to 2 hours, and 2 bus changes to go 5 miles, that's not viable. I'm way too busy for that.
Why else are so many people driving facing sitting in traffic, parking tickets, parking lot fees, gas prices, bridge tolls, etc?
Parking citations don't provide a solution, they just make life a pregnant dog for the poor, the young & the students.
For people that can afford the cost of a car in the city tickets/parking fees are even less effective. 
Better alternatives change behavior.

eg. A new train just opened in Phoenix last week. 400,000 people road it the first day. Almost half a million cars stayed off the road the first day. That's a solution.

The utopia you describe sounds very nice.  Maybe I'll move there someday.  Will I be allowed to keep my motorcycle so that I can ride it the wrong way down the pedestrian & bike only throughways? 

[evil]   [moto]

didn't you do that in valencia?  [roll]

Spidey does that on Valencia, 24th St in Noe Valley, and in his garage. He calls it riding.

Don't forget T-hill!! [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

No, he just crashes into DanTheMan at T-HIll.

If it wasn’t for the dreamers and the shit-stirrers, there’d be stagnation.     
 ;D

no, i meant valencia, spain.  i believe there are still warrants out for spidey in spain.

And to think, you wanted me to go instead?  [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] Actually, I'm pretty lame. I'd probably sully the reputation of the MOB by being civil...most of the time. ;D

Dunno...probably would have been a nice break for you...being in a foreign country and not having to blow anything up ;D

nice break?  i don't think dan can visit a foreign country WITHOUT blowing stuff up  [roll]

No, you're thinking of an AMA race...

Sure.  But I don't understand how your solution will immediately close the $125m budget deficit for this year or--in three or four months from now--close a projected deficit of $576m for next fiscal year. 

Everyone in financial crisis should simply become everyone else's pain in the arse.

(http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.0&disp=emb&view=att&th=11ea918094f2893a)

at times (in recessions) running a deficit is not always bad. hopefully it'll eliminate deflation (really bad) and keep people's spirits high by not slashing jobs/services.  when the economy springs back the deficit will take care of itself with proper planning.

ps i hate enforcement of "mickey mouse" (thanks gov) traffic/parking laws as much as the next guy but why is it ok to bash this govt agency but not others (po)? seems a bit hypocritical, just food for thought...

Unfortunately, state and local governments are mostly required by their constitutions and charters to run balanced budgets. The federal government, however, can resort to deficit spending.

that's it ... i am starting my own government tomorrow. 

in my new country, EVERYONE gets a free ducati of their choice, and track days are free (there's where that deficit spending dq mentions, comes into play).

oh ... and pamela anderson will be the undersecretary of love   [bow_down] (she's canadian too, eh  [thumbsup] )

Meh, bashing DPT is just for sport.  For other agencies, it'd take real effort to get your rant on.  I mean, who is gonna go off about the Civil Service Commission or the General Services Agency or the Reproduction and Mail Services Department (which sounds like two very different things)?

Would that country be called.....Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat)?

Oh, and Pam's not Canadarian anymore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat).

Not for BART cops...that one's easy these days.

Yeah, seriously.  I think I managed three BART cop jokes before noon today. 

Pam's got Hep C and is kinda used lookin'.  How 'bout some other secretary of luvin'?  Mebbe DTM.  He's just scrumptious.    [laugh]

dude ... one NEVER loses being canadian, even if they take on citizenship of another country.  geez, you hoser, get a clue, eh.  :P

and no, my new country will be called "ducatistan", and we will have a much nicer logo  [thumbsup]

dude ... pam is WAY better looking than the only other two canadian chicks i can think of ... joni michell and celine dion (who we have already identified as the anti-christo).

(http://i.ivillage.com/E/325/PlasticSurgery/E_PamAnderson.jpg)

(http://www.boston.com/ae/music/blog/Joni_Mitchell-Both_Sides_Now.jpg)

(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/efowler_2008/celine_dion.jpg)

So just to summarize, DTM likes to blow up Pam Anderson with Hep C in Canada, Desmostro wants light rail to Ducatistan and Spidey is now a deficit spending Director of Parking and Reproductive Sevices?  All this cuz DQ put some change in a meter???

I'm generally the source of these kinds of situations, yes [evil]

You are high.  So high. 

Dude, Natasha Hendstridge.   [thumbsup]
Grace Park
Jill Hennessey
Rachel McAdams
Elisha Cuthbert
Linda Evangalista
Tricia Helfer
F'n TRINITY!!!!!!  She's canadian.   Alright!!!   [thumbsup]   [moto]   [moto]

http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Canadians/actresses.html (http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Canadians/actresses.html)
http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Canadians/More/moreactresses.html (http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Canadians/More/moreactresses.html)

Then again, Vertical Scope is Canadian.  Fookers.  Canada, land of nice people, hot chicks, weird bacon and shitty corporations.

He said Canadian chicks he can think of. Remember: this is John C we're talking about...

Isn't he Canadian?  How can he only think of 3 Canadian chicks?!?  Mebbe I should amend.

Like I said...we're dealing with John C here ;D

Wait why you guys dragging me in to this bullshit conversation. ???

for the record i have gotten more parking tickets in SF than anywhere else combined. Come to think of it, i have only ever recived parking tickets in SF.

It's not........it's not hard.


You park in a spot, and feed the meter. You need to leave before your time is up.

Hey! I only blow up things that "needed" to be blown up. [laugh] Besides, just because a Dragon AT-4 is an anti-tank weapon, doesn't mean you have to use it just for tanks. [evil] ;D

Although, come to think of it, there is that thing I made at the shop the other day... couple of M-80's, some glycerin, some magnesium filings, some electrical tape and an airtight container.
All I need now is an unsuspecting crackhead to sneak into the back parking area at work, and...

...and you'll blow off a finger or two?   [laugh]

never been ticketed for a meter running out. Its been those "cant park here on Friday's" or between 8-10 Sunday morning. not living in the city i don't check for those wacky signs, but now i do.

1.It's nice to hear MUNI bashing. I mean Muni is so much worse that Public transit in Santa Rosa or LA or Stockton or Redding or Burlingame or Denver or.........

2.After doing a fine deed like feeding the meters on 15th you could have treated yourself to a Nice Truffle from Joseph Schmidt confections up on Sanchez. Yum!

3.I heard this unsubstantiated rumor that DPT just barely makes enough money to sustain operations and doesn't add any revenue to the city budget.

4. Just as a slightly interesting fact. BART is not light rail. (And I know nobody said it was) but is actually heavy rail. In building a Light rail to "Ducatistan" it would probably take forever to get there. You might want to consider a high speed option.







Time to go back to bed. _{I don't see a sleeping Icon, oh here we go.} (http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:czeEzDjJsvx8zM::members.aol.com/rbrown6172/sleeping%252520smiley.gif)

it's the butterfly effect, baby  [roll]

why yes ... i was high when i wrote that reply  [roll]

besides, if i listed all those other canuc pit tootsies, it would not have had the same dumb ass effect, right?  [roll]

nice ... ach (anti-crack-head) device.  i like it ... i like it a LOT.  [evil]

hey, use lower case ... ee cummings is my hero ...

a presto,
johnc

(http://www.bhopal.net/opinions/eecummings.jpg)

ultra high speed, low carbon footprint option:
click heels three times while saying "there's no place like borgo panigal" three times ... and poof ... your in ducatistan.

 [laugh] nice

remember ... vote for johnc as leader of ducatistan, and all your dreams will come true (yup, i stole this campaign promise from pedro)  [thumbsup]