Here is my dilemma:
I want to build a garage/workshop, but i have very limited funds. I can do ALL the work my self...except pouring the slab.
I am looking to make a structure 24' x 30' approx.
If anyone has any suggestions or ideas on materials to use and a source that would be greatly appreciated.
Also, if you have any suggestions about amenities (overhead airlines, floor drains, lifts) please feel free to comment also.
I have tons of construction experience, just not using alternative materials, or thinking outside the box.
BTW, i live in Baltimore, Md. so we do get cold winters, and figure i would get an old wood stove to heat the area when i need too.
Thanks,
RB
I really liked the hay bale idea from the greenhouse conversation.
Join freecycle and request building materials.
Maybe elevate the floor so you don't get the cold ground chilling the place. Also instead of a slab floor maybe large paving stones (24"x24") could work, it would also allow draining underneath the paving stones since they are usually elevated. That means no drains or pipes to deal with, just a pitched floor. I would also recommend a reinforced beam near the ceiling for a chain hoist which should be able to get most things done.
thanks a bunch guys, keep the ideas roling!
RB
If you have access to saw and trees you can try cord wood building. Its a process where you use firewood in a masonary wall. Theres also a method called dirt bag building where you build walls with polypropylene bags filled with dirt. [popcorn]
Not any revolutionary ideas here, but overhead air (as you noted) and over head electrics. A ceiling fan would be nice. If you're planning on doing finish work, some side lighting is handy. Central vac/dust collector? That's probably more clutch if you're planning a lot of wood work...
Some way to keep off the slab in winter will be a biggy. When I helped my Dad renovate a house in Colorado, we elevated the floor on a lattice of 1 by's and put the big 4'x8' sheets of the foam blue board in between the lattice and topped it off with ply. Not very costy, but did a lot to keep the heat in.
Surfing this site might give some inspiration
http://www.carguygarage.com/ (http://www.carguygarage.com/)
Quote from: Slag on January 07, 2009, 12:31:24 PM
I really liked the hay bale idea from the greenhouse conversation.
[rant]
It was STRAW bale. And yes there is a big difference.
[/rant]
I agree with Slag. I worked on a straw bale municiple building (work shop and truck garage) in Bowie, MD last summer. This construction technique lends itself well to garage use.
Quote from: pndwind on January 07, 2009, 01:33:13 PM
If you have access to saw and trees you can try cord wood building. Its a process where you use firewood in a masonary wall. Theres also a method called dirt bag building where you build walls with polypropylene bags filled with dirt. [popcorn]
I know these techniques as well.
PM me if you would like to discuss these options.
edit:
You can prevent the cold slab problem by insulating under it as part of a shallow frost protected foundation.
I have an idea for a structure that I have plans to build for myself using shipping containers. they are fairly cheap for the sqf and they are steel so manipulating them would not be rocket science. I have also seen people use them as a portion of a structure and built from/around it to enclose the desired sqf.
You should insulate the slab, rough pour then sheets of polystyrene then the screed.
I'm in the same boat, so am watching this thread avidly. [popcorn]
Two of the issues with strawbale I've heard are:
1) Local building codes tend to be exclusive, in that they say "if this construction technique/material isn't on our approved list, it's forbidden." We're lucky in that the chief building inspector for our town also teaches alternative techniques (he's a big straw proponent) at the local college.
2) I've also heard (and it may be a rumor -- please debunk!!!) that insurance companies can be very leery of alternative building techniques even if they're allowed under building codes, basically because they have no idea what they're dealing with and hence don't know how to calculate risk.
Strawbale would be my first choice for our garage, but I'm also looking into cob construction, adobe brick (we're in Arizona, though up in the mountains), structural insulated panels (SIPs -- pre-manufactured panels that are both structural and insulating, usually expanded polystyrene panels clad in either chipboard or shotcrete) and other approaches.
Lots of good info and links to more in depth sources at this website, though Firefox seems to do some funky stuff to the site layout, at least for me -- on the individual pages, all the info dumps down to the bottom, below the left-hand nav, and often appears mashed together:
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/index.htm (http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/index.htm)
Love this thread.
That is all.
Radient heat flooring. when I build my garage thats what will be installed. And a 2 post lift too.
RB, I think the cheapest way to go is to stick build with 2x4 and OSB lumber. In my area, I can build and
sheath an 8'x8' wall for right around $30 in materials. The equivalent size wall made of straw bales costs $55 not including the rebar needed to attach the bales to each other.
Here are some convenience/cost saving measures I employed in building my 20x30' garage several years
ago;
1) Build the walls to a height of 10'. The extra 2' of height allows you to spin 8' lumber without hitting the
ceiling joists/lighting. It also allows you to hang things out of the way without banging into them. I've got
bikes hanging from the walls, and a kayak hanging from the ceiling on a pulley system.
2) Install the biggest doors you can. My entry door is 36", and both my vehicle doors are 8x8', instead of 8x7' which is normal. Also, build your own vehicle doors. I built swinging doors from 4x8' 3/4" plywood and 1x6's for $100/each. The cheapest, uninsulated rollup door I could find for 8x8' would have cost $425, more than twice the price.
3)Insulate under the slab. A layer of 6mil plastic over 1" poly boards is a big help on those cold winter nights. In areas where sawdust will not accumulate, use waste carpeting to insulate and cushion your feet. Almost any carpet store will gladly give you old carpet from their next job. Some of them will even deliver it to you.
You do realize that we will need photos, right?
Quote from: triangleforge on January 07, 2009, 02:29:17 PM
Strawbale would be my first choice for our garage, but I'm also looking into cob construction, adobe brick (we're in Arizona, though up in the mountains), structural insulated panels (SIPs -- pre-manufactured panels that are both structural and insulating, usually expanded polystyrene panels clad in either chipboard or shotcrete) and other approaches.
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/index.htm (http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/index.htm)
SIPs is a pretty cool way to go. I have a friend (fellow architecture monkey) who built his own house, almost entirely out of SIPs. Went up very quickly, and was pretty simple to detail. We've used it on a few projects, but I haven't had an opportunity to do much of a project with them. But, I think it's a pretty efficient construction panel system. Only problem that my friend had was not being able to put in recessed can lights in the panels, since the ceiling panel was essentially the roof. But that doesn't really matter for the average garage.
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 07, 2009, 02:52:16 PM
RB, I think the cheapest way to go is to stick build with 2x4 and OSB lumber. In my area, I can build and
sheath an 8'x8' wall for right around $30 in materials. The equivalent size wall made of straw bales costs $55 not including the rebar needed to attach the bales to each other.
I would like to know where you came up with the cost for the straw bale. ???
And rebar is no longer used in bale construction due to moisture issues.
Quote from: FatguyRacer on January 07, 2009, 02:41:45 PM
Radient heat flooring. when I build my garage thats what will be installed.
Oh hell yes. [thumbsup]
Even if you don't have the $$ to finish the system, at least get the Wirsbo tubing under the slab before you pour concrete. You can always connect the heating unit and water supply later.
Quote from: FatguyRacer on January 07, 2009, 02:41:45 PM
Radient heat flooring. when I build my garage thats what will be installed. And a 2 post lift too.
+1
If I could build my own shop, this would be #1 on the list. Measure out for the lifts, poor the slab thicker where the lifts will go and run radient heating around the spots for the lifts.
Then a metal building with insulation, and more metal on the inside. Quick, Cheap, Fire resistant, low maintenece.
Use as much natural lighting as possible (clear plastic on the roof, instead of green and windows facing east and south). Paint the floor white. you'll thank me later.
Quote from: DesmoDiva on January 07, 2009, 03:20:34 PM
I would like to know where you came up with the cost for the straw bale. ???
And rebar is no longer used in bale construction due to moisture issues.
Cost for bales of hay or straw in my area(Norfolk VA) is $5/bale. It takes 11 bales to cover 8x8". What is used now in place of rebar?
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 07, 2009, 02:52:16 PM
RB, I think the cheapest way to go is to stick build with 2x4 and OSB lumber. In my area, I can build and
sheath an 8'x8' wall for right around $30 in materials. The equivalent size wall made of straw bales costs $55 not including the rebar needed to attach the bales to each other.
Here are some convenience/cost saving measures I employed in building my 20x30' garage several years
ago;
1) Build the walls to a height of 10'. The extra 2' of height allows you to spin 8' lumber without hitting the
ceiling joists/lighting. It also allows you to hang things out of the way without banging into them. I've got
bikes hanging from the walls, and a kayak hanging from the ceiling on a pulley system.
2) Install the biggest doors you can. My entry door is 36", and both my vehicle doors are 8x8', instead of 8x7' which is normal. Also, build your own vehicle doors. I built swinging doors from 4x8' 3/4" plywood and 1x6's for $100/each. The cheapest, uninsulated rollup door I could find for 8x8' would have cost $425, more than twice the price.
3)Insulate under the slab. A layer of 6mil plastic over 1" poly boards is a big help on those cold winter nights. In areas where sawdust will not accumulate, use waste carpeting to insulate and cushion your feet. Almost any carpet store will gladly give you old carpet from their next job. Some of them will even deliver it to you.
You do realize that we will need photos, right?
+1 for the most part
My detached shop is 30x33 (local code dictated a max of 1000 sq ft) on a floating slab, storage rafters the full 33' length. It features a 16x7' and 8x7' door on one 30' end, and one 36" walk door and one 5'x6'6" overhead (most used door in the place) on one long wall . 2x4 stick construction, OSB sheathing, insulated, sheetrocked and textured on the inside nicer than my house. I didn't heat the floor (had a friend who has a horror story about them, but I still considered it), but I have a hanging natural gas heater in the corner that keeps it at 45 degrees minimum all the time (doesn't use as much gas as I thought it might). All told I've got about $20K stuck in it. All it needs is a bathroom and running water and I could live out there. :)
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 07, 2009, 03:54:51 PM
Cost for bales of hay or straw in my area(Norfolk VA) is $5/bale. It takes 11 bales to cover 8x8". What is used now in place of rebar?
Your estimate is correct. ;) I just assumed it was high with out doing the math, my bad. :-X
Most builders either pin the bales on outside with 1x strapping or pierce the bales (how the rebar was used) with bamboo.
I'll see if I have any picts of the projects I've worked on.
Quote from: Fresh Pants on January 07, 2009, 02:57:50 PM
snip....... But that doesn't really matter for the average garage.
With the folks on here, I'm not so sure this is going to turn into just an average garage. The OP may even end up with a jet hanger under the main floor. ;D
I don't have much to say about construction methods (not to the point where I can own my own place yet) but I can tell you that you need to plan on your shop layout before you start building. Deciding exactly what you're going to be using it for is a good start. My parents have a 30'/40' garage they built as kind of a do all shop and they way they did it it turned out great for pretty much anything they want to do with it just because they planned ahead.
How many garage doors are you planning on having and what size? Dad's garage is divided directly in half by an insulated wall with a separate 7/8 garage door separating the two halves. The unheated half is basically storage for the Cuda and other misc. bullshit along with one vehicle port and a spot for the Harley/tractor/plow, depending on the season. He's got a two wide door on that side. The other side, which he uses as his shop is heated by a standard gas furnace (wood or gas, I guess you can make that choice on your own) and has a 9' garage door (I think) which is where he keeps the big van.
Since you're talking about air lines, I'm assuming your going to have a pretty good sized compressor, so you may think about separating that from your shop as much as possible. I always hated the noise of that thing running in his shop and would have put it on the other side of that middle wall to dampen the sound. As far as the air lines go you have a couple of options depending on $$. The "nicest" way to do it is to run copper pipe to anywhere in the garage you're going to want air. Someone on this forum did it (don't remember who) and it works well and looks good. On the other hand, you could just go to Harbor Frieght and buy a shitload of hose and somehow attach it to the wall. Dad's shop has one of those retractable reels with 50 or so feet of hose that I'm a big fan of.
Are you going to be welding or painting? You're going to need a good amount of venthilation and lighting for those kinds of things, not to mention the possibility of a 220 line. On that note, I got a powdercoat kit for Christmas (a little one) and would love to have a full sized oven for curing as opposed to the toaster oven I found at a pawn shop. Since I'm assuming you're going to be present when you have the slab poured, you may think about making some sort of recess in the floor either for overhead vehicle work or even mounting some sort of flush mount hydraulic motorcycle lift. How bad ass would it be just to park your bike on a spot on the floor, strap down the front tire, and have it lift up? One other thing that retrofitted in my garage (rental, so i can't really build anything into it) is a place for the shit you don't want to get dirty. My garage is my sanctuary so I have things like a pc (for internet instructions/ music server), a comfy chair, and a minifridge which is the kind of stuff you don't want to have covered in metal shavings. Such things should go near your workbench, which should be the centerpoint of your shop. You'll need storage under the bench. Drawers work well, or you can make small platforms on castors so they roll out and are more accessible. Old kitchen cabinets are probably pretty easy to come about, not to mention if you build it with 10' cielings you'll have plenty of room on top of the cabinets to store the stuff you don't use often.
Jesus, sorry about the length. It took me months of withdrawl after I went off to college to get over having a full shop at my disposal. I could live in a studio apartment with a micro kitchen just so long as i had a full garage. You get to start from scratch, anything you want done is possible. Jealous ;D
Find a local outlet for Habitat for Humanity. They sell many building supplies that have been donated free for extremely cheap prices and the money goes back to HFH. [thumbsup]
In Kona we get some awesome deals on stuff (sometimes VERY slightly damaged or not at all) for our remodel. (often donated from building projects in the 10 15 million $ range) I.E. $40 a square ft. glass tile for $3, custom doors, electrical supplies,etc.
Pole barn style construction with purlens can also be cost effective. You often can find used metal roofing in areas where farming and other industrial building is common.
BTW, if your trying to keep cost low then completely remove the in-floor heat system from your wish list. they are expensive in materiels, installation AND operation and don't let anyone tell different. To be efficient they have to be insulated underneath, often with special foil insulation, run continueosly, and at least 18 -24 hrs before to bring up to the desired temp (doesn't address summer cooling either which will be another cost). They do provide very even nice heat though. The materiels are usually pretty pricey unless you have a plumber friend who is willing to get them for you cheaply [laugh] and then install it for you for cheap [laugh] [laugh] [laugh], which requires EXPENSIVE special tools and fasteners and other parts AND time. Then there is the manifold system design [bang] and trouble shoot/initial setup. You can set them up with on demand water heaters (instead of a boiler or large capacity(70-90gal), high efficiency, waterheater) with recirculating manifolds etc., but it is still a huge cost. Unlimited budget....hands down winner, budget budget....sorry. ;D Talk to a local HVAC guy who does replacements and see if you can get a used heat/cool pump system for free when they do a replacement and then it will be on demand. Still might be costly to run though.
KP
get a bunch of these and glue em together.(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/454494396_9afb8c3607.jpg)
WOW...i am really grateful for all the great suggestions.
Let me give a little insight to what this structure will be used for:
Primarily it will be used for bike storage, and projects of a vehicular manner...mainly bikes for now. It will not be used to park our daily drivers, but will be used for maintenance. So a lift will be in my future, but for now i will make sure the lift area is properly reinforced. Sliding barn or hinged doors will be used to reduce cost.
I also have some woodworking projects, but the real equipment is at my fathers house.
A hefty air compressor will be located in a room outside the garage(noise).
Roofing will be metal, and clear corrugated. This is because a second floor will be added in the coming years, so the roof will be removed.
I am planning for a welder, a hood, and an oven for my powdercoating.
My son will be turning 16 in 4 years, so we will have a car project, and i want to make sure i am ready.
I will be running tubing for radiant floor heat, but that is all, i don't have the money to pay for a full system, and do not need to run the system 24/7. I am planning to add some solar panels(hopefully someday) that could supplement the heating, or at least keep it from freezing.
I will definitely post pics, and drawings in the next few months. Along with dollar figures
Economically does it make sense to build a course or two (cinder block) out of the ground so that i can used 8' 2bys? Or is it cheaper to just buy 10' 2 bys.
thanks for all the great suggestions
+1 on the this thread is awesome comment. So much good information!
+1 on the 220V comment. I would wire for one, even if you don't have immediate plans for one
PLENTY of lighting is a must. I have a 2-tube, 48" overhead light, and it is NOT enough light when working on stuff. It's plenty for going in and out of the garage, cleaning the garage etc. I always have to get my work light whenever I am wrenching/detailing etc.
I've also got an idea for hinged shelves/work area that easily gives you extra space to work when you need it, but easily folds up out of the way.
JM
Quote from: RB on January 08, 2009, 06:06:23 AM
Economically does it make sense to build a course or two (cinder block) out of the ground so that i can used 8' 2bys? Or is it cheaper to just buy 10' 2 bys.
Not sure about "economically", but this is a good construction strategy anyway.
I built a 26x40 garage a few years ago. The extra course of block around the foundation is nice for a couple reasons: It's more difficult for critters to gnaw their way into the garage, and it's also easier to use my grass trimmer around the perimeter of the building when I mow in the summer. ;D
Keep us posted on how the project shapes up! Garages are fun. [thumbsup]
step one.
consume meth
step two
consume alcohol
step three
wear thrift store clothing
step four
go to any constuction site (this is were steps one through three come into play, as it will allow you to blend in)
step five
steal all construction supplies and tools needed to complete the job ( steps one and two help at this stage)
step six
go to any local home depot and pick up "day" laborers with the promise to pay them at the end of each day.
step seven
have a friend dress up as an INS agent or boarder patrol agent, and towards the end of each day, have him/her stop by your house ( instant payroll savings)
repeat step seven until job is complete
* DISCLAIMER
bp only endorses step two
Quote from: cbartlett419 on January 07, 2009, 02:01:18 PM
I have an idea for a structure that I have plans to build for myself using shipping containers. they are fairly cheap for the sqf and they are steel so manipulating them would not be rocket science. I have also seen people use them as a portion of a structure and built from/around it to enclose the desired sqf.
I was planning to get a Tuff Shed, but then I saw an article about the surplus of shipping containers in the US. Now that you say this, I'm wondering if I could find a container to put on the side of my house to get all the chemicals, paint, and lawn tools out of my garage...
I don't need a big one, I'm wondering how much an 8-10 foot container would cost compare to a tuff shed.. I live in SoCal, so I don't need any fancy heating systems.. just somewhere to get the chemicals out of the house proper.
Andy
Quote from: Privateer on January 08, 2009, 07:36:30 AM
I was planning to get a Tuff Shed, but then I saw an article about the surplus of shipping containers in the US. Now that you say this, I'm wondering if I could find a container to put on the side of my house to get all the chemicals, paint, and lawn tools out of my garage...
I don't need a big one, I'm wondering how much an 8-10 foot container would cost compare to a tuff shed.. I live in SoCal, so I don't need any fancy heating systems.. just somewhere to get the chemicals out of the house proper.
Andy
FYI.... I know a guy ;)
we rent out part of our shops property to a guy who sells them [thumbsup]
all kinds of sizes
and..... we also sell stuff to a company called Dry Creek Mini Barns..... and thier stuff can be cheaper than the Tuff Shed stuff. (depending on options)
Quote from: DesmoDiva on January 07, 2009, 04:02:49 PM
Your estimate is correct. ;) I just assumed it was high with out doing the math, my bad. :-X
Most builders either pin the bales on outside with 1x strapping or pierce the bales (how the rebar was used) with bamboo.
I'll see if I have any picts of the projects I've worked on.
I saw a guy doing straw bale shear walls for his senior project at Poly but he encased it in concrete. Is this typical? I'd assume so since I can't think of any other ways to handle lateral forces other than to the make the whole thing into a shear wall.
Quote from: erkishhorde on January 08, 2009, 08:05:25 AM
I saw a guy doing straw bale shear walls for his senior project at Poly but he encased it in concrete. Is this typical? I'd assume so since I can't think of any other ways to handle lateral forces other than to the make the whole thing into a shear wall.
It's not usually used in CA due to the seismic provisions. CBC has no provision for straw bales, so you'd need to calc and spec the whole thing out.
As far is it being cheap, if you want to add a second floor, make sure you take that into account. Being in a non-seismic area, I'd consider crappy tilt-up type CMU construction.
Quote from: RB on January 08, 2009, 06:06:23 AM
Economically does it make sense to build a course or two (cinder block) out of the ground so that i can used 8' 2bys? Or is it cheaper to just buy 10' 2 bys.
State of MD abides by IRC, so you'll have to use at least one course of cinderblock, or other nondegradable material to a height of 8" above level ground. This is for termite prevention.
We just pulled a permit for a 12x24 garage we'll start next week. There are a number of fiddly rules regarding garages, so make sure you know how to satisfy the code requirements in your plans.
In my garage, I ran 2x4x10s atop the press.treated sill plate, for a ttl height of 11' 1/2" with a doubled top plate.
Some of the oldest structures in the US are constructed from staw bales
Quote from: bluemoco v2.0 on January 08, 2009, 07:17:05 AM
snip
It's more difficult for critters to gnaw their way into the garage, and it's also easier to use my grass trimmer around the perimeter of the building when I mow in the summer. ;D
Keep us posted on how the project shapes up! Garages are fun. [thumbsup]
+1. I'm going to live vicariously through you :)
I'd forgotten about the mowing advantage. It's a small perk, but it's a good one. I don't remember how they built it in, but my rents poured a 4 inch rat wall when they poured the initial slab. I don't know the pricing on square yardage of concrete nowadays, but you may look into that as opposed to cinder blocks. IIRC they used 10' wall lengths on top of the rat wall.
Since you've already planned on a welding hood, make sure to incorporate the vents and fans into your wall plan. Someone mentioned having steel beams along the cieling for chain winches which might be a good idea if you're planning on storing bikes. Hell, done right you could use it to lift a car off of an engine if you don't have the lift by the time you and your boy start in on a project. Also, check the local classifieds frequently for old bread ovens. If you could get one of the big walk ins in addition to a smaller stove for smaller projects, you could easily start coating frames, tanks, small animals, anything that will powdercoat......
Plan early for pimpage. After you have the $$, pimp away buddy. Pimp away.
Anyone else a member here?
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/index.php? (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/index.php?)
all great points!
I actually plan to get a permit for a shed, outbuilding...not sure if that will make a difference in the code here in MD. thanks for the tips
RB
Not sure about MD codes, but it is much easier to get a permit for a shed than a garage, here in NY. I know from experiece.
There may, however, be size restrictions on a shed.
Quote from: DesmoDiva on January 09, 2009, 06:56:17 AM
Not sure about MD codes, but it is much easier to get a permit for a shed than a garage, here in NY. I know from experiece.
There may, however, be size restrictions on a shed.
I believe here that caps you at 120 sf.
In MD i need a permit for ANY structure over 120sqft.
I am planning a 720sqft structure.
A request from my fellow dMFers...
I live in the Baltimore area of Maryland, if you come across a barn, large shed, garage for sale please PM me. After reading a few things online i have seen some amazing stuff done with recycled buildings...barns and metal structures primarily. So i suppose i could drive about 2-3hrs to dismantle a structure, or pick one up to use in my construction.
thanks,
RB
Very interesting stuff.
I have been planning to put up a garage for a little while now but I will stick to "conventional" construction, i.e. slab floor, cinderblock walls, etc. I have been looking at the radiant heating options for a while too, but I am not convinced running hot water is the best way -- one of the solutions runs hot OIL and can use almost any heat source -- the oil system is sealed and a pump pushes the oil thru a coil which can be in a furnace fired by NG, LPG, oil, or even wood. temperature control is set by a tempering mechanism (a reservoir of un-heated oil) and the speed of the pump.
Anyone ever tried the used auto-oil heaters? My local quick-lube & inspection station has one ~
JM
Quote from: the_Journeyman on January 12, 2009, 04:15:41 AM
Anyone ever tried the used auto-oil heaters? My local quick-lube & inspection station has one ~
JM
They ain't what they used to be. A buddy of mine heats a rather large repair shop, 10 bays on one side, office in the middle, large body shop on the other with waste oil. Saves him a fortune.
For large spaces
http://www.lanair.com/Lanair2.0/ (http://www.lanair.com/Lanair2.0/)
Cheap DIY
http://www.wasteoilplans.com/ (http://www.wasteoilplans.com/)
Tons of stuff out there. The catch for home use is how long will the couple of gallons from your family fleet last?
Quote from: the_Journeyman on January 12, 2009, 04:15:41 AM
Anyone ever tried the used auto-oil heaters? My local quick-lube & inspection station has one ~
JM
That is an interesting idea but you need a lot of oil, also all the ones i've seen are messy as hell.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on January 11, 2009, 08:09:36 PM
Very interesting stuff.
I have been planning to put up a garage for a little while now but I will stick to "conventional" construction, i.e. slab floor, cinder block walls, etc. I have been looking at the radiant heating options for a while too, but I am not convinced running hot water is the best way -- one of the solutions runs hot OIL and can use almost any heat source -- the oil system is sealed and a pump pushes the oil thru a coil which can be in a furnace fired by NG, LPG, oil, or even wood. temperature control is set by a tempering mechanism (a reservoir of un-heated oil) and the speed of the pump.
this will be a conventional build(stick build), unless i can take down a barn to salvage the wood...preferred rather then buying new, but budget is going to dictate this.
I am going to run the tubing for radiant floor heat, because once the slab is in there is no running the tubing later. Does oil work better the water, or the corn syrup stuff? I don't have a clue, and can't afford either system, but i can afford the tubing for the future upgrade.
the heating system for now will be a used wood stove, then eventually something that i could leave on all the time to keep the space tolerable.
I don't know enough about it to tell you and the system I read about was in Germany, so it may not even be available here -- they did not use plastic (PEX,polybutelyne) tubes, they used some kind of coated metal (non ferrous because of spalling).
But apparently it worked very well since it did not have any internal corrosion and was low pressure with only a pump as a moving part.
if you are interested, you better start reading up!
i have a good friend that runs an HVAC shop,i think that, coupled with some internets research, should prove fruitful.
+1 on the radiant floor heat (if you're going to be in the garage most of the time). Remember - radiant floor heat is different from traditional heat. It heats the slab (which takes longer) and slowly warms the room. So it's not the best heat if you're working for a couple of hours and want to crank the heat just for the time you're in the garage. It is great if it's going to become your workspace.
more electric than you could possible imagine. Everything is electric, and next thing you know all the tools, tv, radio, toaster, cellphone charger, computer, will be blowing a circuit. hubby suggested the garage should have it's own power supply. He also suggested running conduit in case you want to later pull a line for something later. Also he liked the idea of floor plugs (not me - I'd end up spilling a drink in there and have a short. BZZZZ!!!BZZZZZ!!).
I like when they run the electric lines along the top of the workbench so you have a plug every 6 - 12 inches.
ok, so i have been obsessing about this project, i am now calling it a shop, garage is misleading when i talk to my friends.
So, what is the cheapest method to putting a roof on this thing? Stick build, truss, metal roof (no sheathing) or some alternative using reclaimed aircraft wings. I am not concerned with looks, and the roof really only needs to last 5years, because it will get an overhaul before then....well that is the plan.
If i didn't mention it before the dimensions of the shop will be 24' by 30', the roof will need to span the 24' length(no columns). I don't mind having an i-beam support, but i don't know if that makes sense or not.
thanks
RB
Planning to have this roof in place for only 5 years could be problematic with your building inspector. Whatever you do on the roof for the first 5 years will have to be pretty sound.
I don't know about what it's like where you live, but if I pull a building permit here, the inspectors will be certain that my structure meets all the codes. They won't have any sympathy for me if I promise that the roof will be rebuilt in 5 years' time. ;D Inspectors have heard ALL these stories before... [laugh]
Not trying to lecture - just be mindful that building inspectors are unlikely to bend rules for you... :)
For any roof over 16', I suggest engineered trusses. Cost is slightly higher than stick built, but it's not that much higher, and they come with wind, span, and load data that you can show your inspector. You can specify a storage space, and they deliver to your site(which is a blessing when you're talking about lumber over 16' in langth).
On the electric, stay away from floor plugs. You need to be ablt to clean the shop floor, and it's a lot easier to do a final cleanup with a hose. Floor plugs also tend to trap sawdust. I ran a 20a circuit along a roof rafter, and plugged in a cord reel which I attached to the rafter. When I need power for a floor saw, power planer, etc. I just pull the cord down, and plug in.
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 14, 2009, 01:55:01 PM
I ran a 20a circuit along a roof rafter, and plugged in a cord reel which I attached to the rafter. When I need power for a floor saw, power planer, etc. I just pull the cord down, and plug in.
cord reels are the way to go. run a 30 amp line with several 15 amp cord reels.
thanks for the info. The electric will NOT be in my original design for the building since i would have to hire an electrician to fulfill the permit requirements.
The 5 year roof idea, i know th inspector isn't going to let me slide, i was asking because from what i have read, unless you install a floating metal roof system, you will need to replace the metal roof in ten years. The heating and cooling of the metal roof creates issues over time which is why the floating system is more $$$.
QuoteThe 5 year roof idea, i know th inspector isn't going to let me slide, i was asking because from what i have read, unless you install a floating metal roof system, you will need to replace the metal roof in ten years. The heating and cooling of the metal roof creates issues over time which is why the floating system is more $$$.
Dunno where this piece of info came from? I live in a high fire hazard area and there are lots of conventional metal roofs here that are a lot more than 10 years old and doing fine.
A few suggestions and also things I'd do differently if I built my shop over again:
I agree with the radiant flooring heat - I didn't do it because of the initial expense of running the tubing and dang is it cold in there sometimes.
Make the ceiling joists strong enough to support a lot of stuff you might want to store in the attic space, even if it is small.
Place windows to pick up some solar energy from the winter sun.
No matter how big you build it, it will be too small, so build it as big as you possibly can and if you have the space plan it for future expansion. Can you go two storeys?
If you are thinking of adding plumbing later, run some pipes in the concrete floor slab. If it's an inspector issue you can hide the stub ends just an inch below the surface of the concrete and he/she will not know they're there. Just make sure you very carefully map their location. It's a great help just having a sink.
For a shop I think a concrete floor is the way to go.
Build it as good as you can, don't cut too many corners due to a tight budget and it will pay off. I think that no matter how you try to build it, there will be some surprise costs and it will be a lot more expensive than you think, plus it will take longer to finish than you think. I ended up getting a relatively small loan at a good rate and it has worked out pretty good.
I don't have a permitting issue with electricity since we're "allowed" to do our own work here, but electricity is important and if you can find a cooperative electrician and do most of the work yourself and have him finish it, it might not be prohibitively expensive? Make sure you have enough panel capacity for future expansion like say a 5 HP compressor and a welder.
Pour a slab out front of the shop, it's a good place to work on things in the summer.
Don't know where your neighbors are, if any, but sound insulation on their side might be a good idea. It sometimes cramps my style when I want to hammer on something at 3AM and think of the neighbors. They haven't complained yet, but...
and if you have a little extra money - put in extra stone below the footing. Water has more room it fill up before it starts running into the shop.
Trusses are great - better look into if you need a crane to install. Our builder told us that by the time he paid for the crane and waited for the trusses, it was quicker to frame it and the labor for the men was about the same as the rental of the crane. Your conditions may differ - just wanted you be informed.
I spoke with my dad last night about trusses, and this is definitely a concern, about the crane that is. I plan on having this stuff built and delivered in advance of the walls going up. Since i am doing this myself, and some friends with strong backs and weak minds, if i have to wait for trusses or stick buld the room because of money, that is what i will do.
I plan on setting the slab about 6 inches above grade, and add a vapor barrier.
thanks for the tips folks, keep them coming
RB
Quote from: RB on January 15, 2009, 11:18:43 AM
I spoke with my dad last night about trusses, and this is definitely a concern, about the crane that is. I plan on having this stuff built and delivered in advance of the walls going up. Since i am doing this myself, and some friends with strong backs and weak minds, if i have to wait for trusses or stick buld the room because of money, that is what i will do.
I plan on setting the slab about 6 inches above grade, and add a vapor barrier.
thanks for the tips folks, keep them coming
RB
I'd hang off on having them delivered until you're ready to put them up. They're really large and get in the way, plus there's no use having them sit around on the ground.
You can probably put those up by hand but get ready to walk on the top plates. ;)
Quote from: RB on January 15, 2009, 11:18:43 AM
I spoke with my dad last night about trusses, and this is definitely a concern, about the crane that is. I plan on having this stuff built and delivered in advance of the walls going up.
call around and see how much crane rentals are. around me, you can get a huge one with operator for $650 for 4 hours.
depending on how big your build is and how many trusses you are putting up, that might just do it.
this calculator will give you an idea of how many trusses you'll need
http://www.get-a-quote.net/quickcalc/gable_truss.htm
use the dimensions of the building and the center-to-center requirements for your area/type of roof. 24 inch centers is common.
we were able to put up trusses for a 20x18 shed with truss roof in about 4 hours. if you have more people, it might be quicker.
you need to connect them to each other and to the top, and if you buy premade ones that is pretty easy as long as you have 4-5 guys on the roof each with a screwgun.
Right it is probably best to wait till i am ready to set the trusses, i have the room too let them sit, but since i don't have a deadline, i am the client, i won't have to worry about them until i am ready.
Hope i won't need a crane simply because of cost. I will have easliy 4-5 guys for this task.
I have the building already drawn, and know i will need 14 trusses, add two for the gable ends, and that is 16. I have been using RevIt for the last year, and am trying to get as proficient with it as i am with AutoCAD Arch Desktop. The drawings aren't finished yet, as i am still figuring how much material i can afford. That will determine the size.
thanks for the wisdom fellas
RB
i bet you could built an in-place frame and hang a block and tackle from it. i don't know how big your trusses will be, but 4-5 guys could lift some decent sized ones.
..those Amish do it all the time. maybe check out their building techniques? they don't use cranes at all!
You won't need a crane, just 3 guys and a 12' 2x4. One guy on each end with nailguns or 16p nails, and one guy in the middle to swivel each truss up, and brace it. We started a 16x24' garage yesterday. The first day, we delivered materials, and erected 3 walls of framing. Today, we framed and installed the fourth wall, and nailed the OSB sheathing. We were done by 1pm, and ready to start roof rafters, but the customer is waiting for a loan check, and was unable to come up with the next payment, so no rafters today. Since the temps are supposed to bottom out tomorrow, I'm just as glad. I can spend tomorrow off, make a fire, and put my feet up. ;D If the money was there, this thing'd be done by next weekend.
My trusses will span 24' with a one foot overhang.
thanks for the advice.
One thing to think about is how much "sound" you are going to make in your shop/garage. I can tell you that my neighbors at the old shop and at home aren't all that enthralled when I get the air-powered planishing hammer going or other "loud machines" running. Essentially ixnay on work after 8pm. Even my big air compressor raised screams when it started running.
Sound proofing ideas are discussed here:
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12292 (http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12292)
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3721 (http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3721)
Quote from: MotoCreations on January 18, 2009, 03:18:58 PM
One thing to think about is how much "sound" you are going to make in your shop/garage. I can tell you that my neighbors at the old shop and at home aren't all that enthralled when I get the air-powered planishing hammer going or other "loud machines" running. Essentially ixnay on work after 8pm. Even my big air compressor raised screams when it started running.
Sound proofing ideas are discussed here:
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12292 (http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12292)
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3721 (http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3721)
thanks
Also in regards to sound, have the doors open away from the neighbors if possible.
concerning heat I got one word: Quonset
the semi circular profile makes air circulate on it's own-- guess that's why the military used it
conversely they are ovens in the summer
Quote from: nllm_oo_mlln on January 18, 2009, 09:34:39 PM
concerning heat I got one word: Quonset
the semi circular profile makes air circulate on it's own-- guess that's why the military used it
conversely they are ovens in the summer
here in maryland we have relatively mild winters, except for this one. Our summers and fair weather make up most of our year, and we can have some blistering heat, humidity is awful at times.
So i have one word for you: Convection!
But thanks for the tip, i actually thought about building one but it makes overhead storage impossible, and the girl isn't into them.
FYI, the March issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine has a good article on radiant floor heating systems. It explains the differences between direct and indirect systems, and gives some alternative installation methods.
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 23, 2009, 08:11:35 PM
FYI, the March issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine has a good article on radiant floor heating systems. It explains the differences between direct and indirect systems, and gives some alternative installation methods.
who sells that? Borders?
Quote from: ducatizzzz on January 24, 2009, 06:07:52 AM
who sells that? Borders?
Pretty sure I saw it there. Don't take my word for it though. I may have been drunk. (Borders is right next to Fridays) ;D
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 23, 2009, 08:11:35 PM
FYI, the March issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine has a good article on radiant floor heating systems. It explains the differences between direct and indirect systems, and gives some alternative installation methods.
cool thanks for the tip.
I have decided that i will build my own carriage doors, since it will be cheaper then a roll-up and it will look nicer. Now before anyone tells me that carriage doors are more expensive then regular garage doors....the doors will 'resemble' carriage doors. I am using a modified door idea i fount on the interwebs, that will use plywood and fascia board to give the appearance of carriage doors, and will open as such.....on hinges.
As soon as i get started i pics will follow.
RB
sounds great! look forward to the pics, then the garagewarming party!!! [beer]
Haven't read the entire post, but a person mentioned on HDforums.com (I know, sacrilege here :P) about using an 11,000 BTU wall heater. Helps with spills like gas or other flammable liquids (e.g. removing a gas tank and gas dumps on the floor).
Also, for additional light, a homebuidling materials store (e.g. ABC Supply Co.) has these cylinders with a plastic (or something probably harder), round top that goes through the roof. Lets in a good amount of light - almost like you have a light on.
Quote from: greenohawk69 on February 04, 2009, 12:50:37 PM
Haven't read the entire post, but a person mentioned on HDforums.com (I know, sacrilege here :P) about using an 11,000 BTU wall heater. Helps with spills like gas or other flammable liquids (e.g. removing a gas tank and gas dumps on the floor).
How does one mop up a spill with a wall heater?
Quote from: greenohawk69 on February 04, 2009, 12:50:37 PM
Also, for additional light, a homebuidling materials store (e.g. ABC Supply Co.) has these cylinders with a plastic (or something probably harder), round top that goes through the roof. Lets in a good amount of light - almost like you have a light on.
I worked on a garage coverted into a studio that had these. It's a little plastic bubble that sticks through the roof, has a reflective tube with a joint on both ends and allows enough movement that the top & bottom don't have to be perfectly inline, and a faceted cover for the bottom (interior piece) and gives a decent amount of natural temperture light, even on a cloudy day [thumbsup]
JM
i think they are called solar tubes...i will have to look into them....well not directly, could make me go blind.....haha....get it...'look into'...sorry i started laughing before i was done typing.
Yep..solar tubes or solatube. They are intended more for preexisting structures. Thus the ability to bend the tube around framing. For a new project just incorporate some skylights. You can get operable ones to let in/out air and some even close when they sense rain if you left them open.
Quote from: RB on February 02, 2009, 12:20:37 PM
I have decided that i will build my own carriage doors,
Add a layer of sound insulation/dampening material if you can while building. (a typical rollup garage door has almost zero sound nor insulation characteristics and usually reflects sounds back at you within the shop itself!)