So I was at the end of a 55mi freeway jaunt and I'm cruising along the surface streets at about 35mph when the bike starts acting like it's out of gas. This is in 3rd gear. I pull in the clutch and coast for a bit, worried that if I gas it it'll die but then decide I have to gas it anyway since I'm almost to a stop light. Give it some gas gently and hear the bike start to die so I stop. I try opening wide and the bike nearly dies instantly so I stop and coast a bit more. I stop and try to give it some gas to start moving again and the bike dies.
So, I'm 2 blocks from home and the bike won't run. I push the bike for a block and while I'm taking a break I try the bike again. The engine turns over but it won't start. If I give it a bit of gas I can hear a second thing working which I assumed was the fuel pump but the bike still doesn't start. So I push it the second block home. Once I'm home I lift the tank and poke around. I find nothing but a battery bungee that isn't strapped down. No biggie. So, with the tank up, I try to start the bike and it starts up no problem. ??? Turn off the bike, put the tank down and it still starts w/ no problem and revs up just fine.
Any ideas what I'm looking at? I recently replaced the fuel filter so I don't think that's it. I was hoping to make a 250mi (ea way) run to see friends this weekend to ride w/ them. Think I'm OK to go?
Kinda sounds like you may have some trash in the tank. Maybe a large piece was getting sucked against the pickup opening.
Or a pinched fuel line or vent tube.
Not much to go on, i know, but it's a place to start.
Kinked gashose or maybe the hose it`s about to go bad/soft so it has a to sharp angle on it
and wont let enough fuel through.
Raise tank - fuel flows - it starts.
Not so sure it's a kinked hose since I haven't raised the tank since I replaced the fuel filter and haven't had any problems for the last month or so. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something floating around in the tank. Any ideas on how to find out if there is actually something in there or how to go about getting it out?
Bet you a dollar its the fuel pump. Mine was doing the same thing till I ditched the oem vacuum pump and replaced it with a small low pressure electric one. The diaphram in the oem pump quits diaphraming over time. There are a few rebuild kits out there. I do have a rebuild kit that I didn't use but I'm in Texas. Ill have to find it so I can get a part number and supplier for you.
This is my setup.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll161/porschaholic/IMG00290.jpg)
This is a Facet brand low pressure fuel pump from Pep Boys. I believe you can run this without a pressure regulator but I decided to run one anyway. The pump fits snuggly so I just used some wire ties and some old coolant hoses to isolate vibrations. The reason I went this route was because the closest oem fuel pump rebuild was 3 weeks away and I didn't feel like waiting. I removed the oem fuel pump and plugged off the vacuum port with a vacuum cap. Wiring the pump in was a simple affair. I just ran the ground to a hidden point on the frame (pod mount) and ran the red wire back to the fuse box and wired it in to its own fuse. If you loosen the fuse box and turn it over, you will see that there are 3 or 4 empty fuse slots that are not used. All the fuses are key on power only so I just used one of those and it has been flawless for the last 8000 miles. This shouldn't cost more than $50 bucks for a do it yourselfer.
Quote from: Ducaholic on January 15, 2009, 05:41:35 PM
Bet you a dollar its the fuel pump. Mine was doing the same thing till I ditched the oem vacuum pump and replaced it with a small low pressure electric one. The diaphram in the oem pump quits diaphraming over time. There are a few rebuild kits out there. I do have a rebuild kit that I didn't use but I'm in Texas. Ill have to find it so I can get a part number and supplier for you.
This is my setup.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll161/porschaholic/IMG00290.jpg)
This is a Facet brand low pressure fuel pump from Pep Boys. I believe you can run this without a pressure regulator but I decided to run one anyway. The pump fits snuggly so I just used some wire ties and some old coolant hoses to isolate vibrations. The reason I went this route was because the closest oem fuel pump rebuild was 3 weeks away and I didn't feel like waiting. I removed the oem fuel pump and plugged off the vacuum port with a vacuum cap. Wiring the pump in was a simple affair. I just ran the ground to a hidden point on the frame (pod mount) and ran the red wire back to the fuse box and wired it in to its own fuse. If you loosen the fuse box and turn it over, you will see that there are 3 or 4 empty fuse slots that are not used. All the fuses are key on power only so I just used one of those and it has been flawless for the last 8000 miles. This shouldn't cost more than $50 bucks for a do it yourselfer.
Aw... That makes it sound like something I shouldn't try a long trip on. :-[
It can do bad things if you run a bike that lean for a long time. I wouldn't do it.
So how can I test that it's a bad fuel pump? I was thinking of riding around tomorrow morning to see if I get any more fuel issues since they seem to have disappear just as suddenly as they appeared.
I don't really know that there is a surefire way to test this. This was just the only thing left on my bike to do. It only failed when the bike was hot and when I was in traffic with little air flow. It would start and idle fine when cold and run fine on cold mornings. On the ride home when it was warmer outside it would act up. How mechanically inclined are you?
Quote from: Ducaholic on January 15, 2009, 07:04:13 PM
How mechanically inclined are you?
Iono. :P I can kinda solder. I can think analytically pretty well to solve problems and trouble shoot and sometimes am able to solve problems w/ things that I don't fully understand just by process of elimination. Then again I've also gotten myself into trouble taking things apart and not being able to put them back together. I've since learned to take better care in remember how I took things apart.
Speaking of the trouble shooting...
You said yours would die out when it got hot. Prior to the fuel issues I made a 55mi run at 85-90mph with no problems. The bike then sat for about an hour and half and I made a 55mi run at 70-75mph and then the bike died out on me on surface streets. If it were dying on me due to temperature I would think the first run should have caused problems too. Hmm... I guess that doesn't mean it's not the fuel pump though. I also have no idea if I'm still running the original or what.
It really sounds like a fuel delivery problem to me. If the filter is new and there are no pinched lines then I would be looking towards the pump. Replacing the pump is very simple. Let's wait till someone else chimes in.
Don't discount HMs suggestion about junk in the tank. If the tank is original there is bound to be rust and a piece of scale could be blocking the tank outlet.
Since it only seems to happen when the bike is warm...
...an electric replacement is not a ton of money and is a better alternative to the stock pump IMO.
I would closely check your fuel hoses again.....I had a buddy with an '01 m900 that would have a fuel delivery problem intermittently.....once he stopped for awhile it would run normally. If it was pushed hard it would have the same problem till it cooled down. Turns out after the last time he raised the tank one of the fuel lines began resting on top of the vertical cylinder and it would get so hot it would cause vapor lock. He experienced this during a 300+mi trip through the north Georgia mountains with a group of Yamaha YZF guys. They gave him endless shit for how unreliable his Ducati was. He still managed to lead the pack through the twisties with coughing bike 8)
Pay close attention as you close your tank to make sure nothing gets pinched or is resting against the cylinder.
Good luck!
Quote from: Ducaholic on January 15, 2009, 05:41:35 PM
Bet you a dollar its the fuel pump. Mine was doing the same thing till I ditched the oem vacuum pump and replaced it with a small low pressure electric one. The diaphram in the oem pump quits diaphraming over time. There are a few rebuild kits out there. I do have a rebuild kit that I didn't use but I'm in Texas. Ill have to find it so I can get a part number and supplier for you.
This is my setup.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll161/porschaholic/IMG00290.jpg)
This is a Facet brand low pressure fuel pump from Pep Boys. I believe you can run this without a pressure regulator but I decided to run one anyway. The pump fits snuggly so I just used some wire ties and some old coolant hoses to isolate vibrations. The reason I went this route was because the closest oem fuel pump rebuild was 3 weeks away and I didn't feel like waiting. I removed the oem fuel pump and plugged off the vacuum port with a vacuum cap. Wiring the pump in was a simple affair. I just ran the ground to a hidden point on the frame (pod mount) and ran the red wire back to the fuse box and wired it in to its own fuse. If you loosen the fuse box and turn it over, you will see that there are 3 or 4 empty fuse slots that are not used. All the fuses are key on power only so I just used one of those and it has been flawless for the last 8000 miles. This shouldn't cost more than $50 bucks for a do it yourselfer.
Alright, after a night's sleep I'm ready to try this. I'm not quite sure what a vacuum port is but there aren't a whole lot of hoses going into the tank so I'm pretty sure I can figure out which hole is the vacuum. Also, for the power for the fuel pump, could I use the wires that go to the existing fuel pump instead of wiring into the fuse box? I assume I could get some hose from home depot too, maybe tygon tubing?. Also, how does the pressure regulator work?
The original fuel pump for this bike is a vacuum actuated type. It is not electric. Look for the pump on the right side of the bike. It is mounted with two screws on the vertical frame tube just behind where my fuel pump is mounted in the picture. It is shaped like a pentagon if I remember correctly. There should be three hoses coming off of it. One supply hose from the tank, one hose that goes up between the carbs, and a smaller hose that goes to one of the intake manifolds. The smaller hose is the vacuum line and that's what needs to be plugged. When you buy your fuel pump pick up an assortment of vacuum caps and you will find one that fits. Your gonna want to remove the vacuum hose completely and put one of the plugs over the port on the intake manifold so you don't have any vacuum leaks. You should also buy some small hose clamps, some electrical wire the same diameter as the wire on the new pump and maybe an assortment of electrical connectors. I didn't have to add any length to the fuel line so you should be okay there. The fuel pressure regulator I used is just a Mr Gasket brand dial type that should also be available at the auto parts store. You want to get the smallest low pressure pump possible and I believe that is the Facet brand. Look for the plastic body one instead of the metal one. The metal ones are loud and the plastic ones are very quiet. Post back when you get that far.
Jon
Bypass the fuel pump and see if that does it. I don't use a pump, I use a petcock to shut off the fuel when needed and a clear plastic fuel filter so I can see if any trash or water gets in there. Either way, I would go ahead with the trip.
Quote from: Norm on January 16, 2009, 07:45:30 AM
Bypass the fuel pump and see if that does it. I don't use a pump, I use a petcock to shut off the fuel when needed and a clear plastic fuel filter so I can see if any trash or water gets in there. Either way, I would go ahead with the trip.
Hehe, I have a petcock too. Is that redundant? It's between the tank and the fuel pump. :P
Just need to shower and then get the bits. I'll post up in a little while for more direction, thanks guys. [thumbsup]
Quote from: Norm on January 16, 2009, 07:45:30 AM
Bypass the fuel pump and see if that does it. I don't use a pump, I use a petcock to shut off the fuel when needed and a clear plastic fuel filter so I can see if any trash or water gets in there. Either way, I would go ahead with the trip.
If I were to bypass the fuel pump, pretty much all I would need is a vacuum cap and an adapter to fill the space where the pump used to be, yes? Do you recall if the hose that goes into the pump is the same size as the hose that comes out or even what size they are? :P
Quote from: Ducaholic on January 16, 2009, 07:25:24 AM
The original fuel pump for this bike is a vacuum actuated type. It is not electric. Look for the pump on the right side of the bike. It is mounted with two screws on the vertical frame tube just behind where my fuel pump is mounted in the picture. It is shaped like a pentagon if I remember correctly. There should be three hoses coming off of it. One supply hose from the tank, one hose that goes up between the carbs, and a smaller hose that goes to one of the intake manifolds. The smaller hose is the vacuum line and that's what needs to be plugged. When you buy your fuel pump pick up an assortment of vacuum caps and you will find one that fits. Your gonna want to remove the vacuum hose completely and put one of the plugs over the port on the intake manifold so you don't have any vacuum leaks. You should also buy some small hose clamps, some electrical wire the same diameter as the wire on the new pump and maybe an assortment of electrical connectors. I didn't have to add any length to the fuel line so you should be okay there. The fuel pressure regulator I used is just a Mr Gasket brand dial type that should also be available at the auto parts store. You want to get the smallest low pressure pump possible and I believe that is the Facet brand. Look for the plastic body one instead of the metal one. The metal ones are loud and the plastic ones are very quiet. Post back when you get that far.
Jon
Alright, so both Pepboys and Autozone only had a Mr. Gasket brand 2-3.5psi fuel pump. It's a BIG sucker too. Using this will guaranteed cause one of the hoses to stick out the side of the bike. [roll] That's $40 before tax. The pressure regulator (1-5psi) was another $25 and that sucker ain't small either. The pressure regulator was almost the size of the stock fuel pump. :-\ I'm not so sure these things will fit in the space I've got. Right now all I've gotten are vacuum caps. I'm sitting on the bypass idea. Trying to figure out what size adapter I need to join the two fuel lines.
Lol... I just check CA-cycleworks website. Fuel pump for the carbed monster is $27. [roll] I'm thinking the bike will hold out for this trip. I'll make the run as is and order the part from CA-Cycleworks today. Who knows, I may even be up for riding down to his shop to pick it up and swap it out right there and then make my trip. [laugh] For anyone else's reference, stock fuel pump for the carbed monsters is ~$145 and dealers most likely don't have it in stock. [roll]
If Chris has em for that price then I would jump on it. Sounds like he isnt too far away from you. [thumbsup]
It's 113mi but considering I just quit my job, why not, I've got time. I can pack up a few tools to do the swap right there outside his shop. If I push it a bit I might be able to get there right around lunch time and still have time to make the (then) 360mi run to see my friends. ;)
Thanks for the guidance, Jon. [thumbsup]
No problem. Let me know how it works out.
So, 240mi and an hour and half of tinkering in the parking lot later I'm all set. ;D It was great to meet Chris and Candice. It's always nice matching a face w/ a voice. I also got the see Chris' (now) shiny MH900. [thumbsup]
The replacement that Chris sells is not a perfect fit. The mounting holes are not in the same spot so how do you mount it? Zip tie. :P I was kinda embarrassed that it took me an hour and a half to swap out the units. Of course I forgot to bring a pair of pliers and had to borrow a pair from Chris. Then I dropped a nut into the engine and couldn't get to it and had to ask for a magnet. [roll] Chris is great to talk with in person and was very helpful. [thumbsup] The new unit is there and runs great! At just under $30 after tax and w/ about $6 in gas each way, it's about the same cost as shipping it when all is said and done but I also got to meet new people and get a ride in. $42 totally beats $150.
Since I didn't wanna ride through LA I ended up running back up the 15 and was passing by my place at around 6pm. By then I was kinda tired and cold so I decided to call it quits. I'll make my run to SLO tomorrow morning. [thumbsup]
Good to hear. Glad you got it all worked out. Just figure out some way to secure it and you will be good to go. That's only about 5 bucks more than the rebuild kit I didn't use.