http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/learn-how-to-invest/victim-Madoff-took-all-my-money--MSNMoney.aspx?GT1=33014 (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/learn-how-to-invest/victim-Madoff-took-all-my-money--MSNMoney.aspx?GT1=33014)
Who cries for the gambler? nobody
We all say... it was your choice.
So why all the sympathy for the people who gambled with Bernie?
Is the gambler a victim? nope...he's just a guy who bet wrong.
I'm unemployed..... I bet wrong. I want no sympathy, this is my mess to clean up. I refuse to be treated as a victim.
I feel sorry for this ladies loss, just as a lot of you feel sorry for my loss, but geeez, this person gambled and tried to make money by doing nothing more than shuffling paper.
And she gets the press, the sob story?
It's not a story of..... I invested in myself... I opened a store, I invested my time, my money, my soul, and it/I failed. No.... it's a story of, I gave a guy some money hoping that I make more money doing nothing, and he ripped me off. Same as any Nigerian scam. And we all love to laugh about how dumb those tards are.
Gee... the rich got poorer because they did something human. They make the beast with two backsed up.
Do what I'm do'n...... apply for another job.
FTR.... I'm all for hang'n Bernie with piano wire, same as the Nigerian scammake the beast with two backss, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna cry for the gambler.
i wont cry for the gambler either
but you gotta remember that everything, including the business that i expect you to start some day, requires investment.
investment requires people to be willing to risk their money
and a big problem right now is that people are afraid to invest in anything.
Quote from: herm on January 25, 2009, 09:20:18 AM
i wont cry for the gambler either
but you gotta remember that everything, including the business that i expect you to start some day, requires investment.
investment requires people to be willing to risk their money
and a big problem right now is that people are afraid to invest in anything.
Investment is huge...... but investment w/o sweat is gambling.
Like stated earlier.... if she had millions to invest, she had millions to invest in herself, but she took the path of least resistance, and GAVE it to somebody else, hoping they would do the hard work.
Michells dad owns a shop, he's 83 years old and he works 6 days a week. His business struggles. I offered up a plan where he sells the business, and uses the money to buy out my old employer. I run the business, same as before, and all he has to do is sit back and collect the profits. No more work or struggle for him. I have a job, my pay stays the same, he has a business, no longer has to struggle....everybodys happy. He wont do it, because he works, and..... I admire him for that. He's not looking for easy.... he's about substance. Thats rare today.
He's back to ranting again.
This is why we need a politics section.
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 25, 2009, 10:04:02 AM
He's back to ranting again.
This is why we need a politics section.
[laugh] [wine]
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 09:39:50 AM
Like stated earlier.... if she had millions to invest, she had millions to invest in herself, but she took the path of least resistance, and GAVE it to somebody else, hoping they would do the hard work.
She gave it to someone who was supposedly better at investing than her. For that she was willing to pay a fee. Same thing most Americans do. All investment is a gamble...some more so than others, and that is understood. This guy was running a scam though.
A person can't know everything about everything. Sometimes you have to trust an expert. The BS is when that expert knowingly commits fraud.
Quote from: Triple J on January 25, 2009, 11:16:12 AM
She gave it to someone who was supposedly better at investing than her. For that she was willing to pay a fee. Same thing most Americans do. All investment is a gamble...some more so than others, and that is understood. This guy was running a scam though.
A person can't know everything about everything. Sometimes you have to trust an expert. The BS is when that expert knowingly commits fraud.
exactly... add to that the fact that madoff, with SEC oversight, was providing quarterly and annual filings that basically assured his investors that their money was profitable (and safe).
I don't see any relationship between gambling and investing with Madoff. If you go to Vegas, you have a chance of wining; in this case Madoff was a psychopath who committed fraud - he was stealing. His investors were lied to - so there is a big difference in this case.
What happend to the old theory of never risk more than you can afford to loose?
Oh, wait, the stock market is not gambling... every prospectus clearly states "1,000,000,000,000x return on investment, Guar-un-teed!" [roll]
Heh, you should see my 401(k) :'(
I feel sorry for anyone who is the victim of a crime and this woman was a victim. She didn't lose her money on a high risk gamble, she lost it because some criminal took it.
my point is...we all gamble.
I put my trust and hard work into somebody elses business. That was my gamble.
She put her trust and money into somebody elses business. That was her gamble.
The guy I trusted was a tard
The guy she trusted was a crook
Same thing in the sense that we gave of our trust. a gamble.
I didnt put my neck out there investing in myself, and neither did she.
Investing in stocks is a gamble. you are putting your money into the hands of others, hoping that you see a return. there is no guarantee.
its called risk.
AAA Corporate Bonds returning 7% on your investment is not bad in a world gone mad.
After a 40 % loss of invested capital , I'd like to get that back but with the pain that the Economy is going through and the pain the is coming in 2010 and 2011 when most of the ARM home loans reset , I'm going to have to be happy with a 7% retun on my investments.
Dolph >:(
So where do you draw the line?
If she'd just put her money in the bank and the bank failed, losing most of her life savings, does she get sympathy?
If she stashes it in her mattress and her house burns down, does she get sympathy?
Maybe I'm just overly sympathetic, but I honestly feel for these people. I feel for the people that have lost their jobs and I feel for people that have been victims of circumstance.
Sympathy doesn't cost anything to give and a little more of it may make the world a better place.
Quote from: superjohn on January 25, 2009, 03:19:43 PM
So where do you draw the line?
If she'd just put her money in the bank and the bank failed, losing most of her life savings, does she get sympathy?
If she stashes it in her mattress and her house burns down, does she get sympathy?
Maybe I'm just overly sympathetic, but I honestly feel for these people. I feel for the people that have lost their jobs and I feel for people that have been victims of circumstance.
Sympathy doesn't cost anything to give and a little more of it may make the world a better place.
Whats the differance between her and that kid who sunk him familys money into a nigerian scam?
Nothing.
The kid thought he was going to make money using money...same as the lady. The scam was just packaged differently.
Why do people laugh at him, and the turn around and feel sorry for Bernies victims?
And, as stated before..... a bullet to Bernies head is warranted...same goes for anybody scamming people out of money.
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 03:36:26 PM
Whats the differance between her and that kid who sunk him familys money into a nigerian scam?
Nothing.
The kid thought he was going to make money using money...same as the lady. The scam was just packaged differently.
Why do people laugh at him, and the turn around and feel sorry for Bernies victims?
And, as stated before..... a bullet to Bernies head is warranted...same goes for anybody scamming people out of money.
Well, to me the difference is a little research shows 50 pages of "scam" alerts about the Nigerian thing.
All the research in the world showed that Madoff was making money.
I feel sorry for the both of them, but until his kids turned him in, there was no mention of Madoff being a scam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv3RWqFlvJs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv3RWqFlvJs)
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 03:36:26 PM
Whats the differance between her and that kid who sunk him familys money into a nigerian scam?
Huge difference. For one, the Nigerian scam is well know. Second, it's a classic example of something for nothing. Third, a little thought tells you it is a scam.
Madoff, on the other hand, was a respected investor. There wasn't any reason not to trust him, and he had reports saying everything was legit...as Derby stated. Also, many clients didn't deal directly with him, they invested their money with someone...who in turn invested it with Madoff. From my understanding, many people didn't even know they were invested in his scheme. Now you'll say they should have...but do you know
exactly where all of your 401K money is? I know which funds mine is in, but I don't know the ins and outs of every fund.
Losing money in an investment when the investment goes bad (stock crash, business failure, etc.) is one thing...losing it because of a complicated scam is entirely different.
maybe it's just my perspective.
my entire life..... I made my money using my back.
I understand buying and selling real things. food, toys, shelter, transportation.
I dont understand selling the paper version of those things, and to me.... thats a big gamble.
Quote from: kopfjager on January 25, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv3RWqFlvJs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv3RWqFlvJs)
kopfjager, a brilliant choice. I think that song was released around '69.
RIP Duane and Barry Dolph :) :)
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 03:36:26 PM
Whats the differance between her and that kid who sunk him familys money into a nigerian scam?
Nothing.
The kid thought he was going to make money using money...same as the lady. The scam was just packaged differently.
Why do people laugh at him, and the turn around and feel sorry for Bernies victims?
And, as stated before..... a bullet to Bernies head is warranted...same goes for anybody scamming people out of money.
how many banks and charities have fallen victim to nigerian 419 scams?
how many banks and charities have fallen victim to madoff?
the difference is that anybody with an ounce of common sense should be able to spot the nigerian stuff as scams.
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 03:56:56 PM
maybe it's just my perspective.
my entire life..... I made my money using my back.
I understand buying and selling real things. food, toys, shelter, transportation.
I dont understand selling the paper version of those things, and to me.... thats a big gamble.
what are your plans for retirement?
do you have any kind of 401k?
if not, how are you planning for your
golden grey and wrinkly years?
with corporate america having mostly ditched the employee pension, 401k/IRA, etc... is the best and only hope most americans have for saving for their retirement. simply putting every extra penny you have into a savings account is not enough.
is it a gamble? yes, but its better than people planning to live of their kids, or the govt.
Quote from: herm on January 25, 2009, 04:02:21 PM
what are your plans for retirement?
do you have any kind of 401k?
if not, how are you planning for your golden grey and wrinkly years?
with corporate america having mostly ditched the employee pension, 401k/IRA, etc... is the best and only hope most americans have for saving for their retirement. simply putting every extra penny you have into a savings account is not enough.
is it a gamble? yes, but its better than people planning to live of their kids, or the govt.
I plan on working, and I save. And when I cant work.... pull the plug ;)
I have a 401k and yup.... its a gamble.
What Madoff was selling was a hedge fund, which are about as high-risk an investment as you can make. Further, to invest 100% of one's savings in any one vehicle - never mind a hedge fund - is monumentally stupid. Doing those two things is not unlike gambling.
However, as stated before, Madoff ran a ponzi scheme complete with the proper paperwork. There was no way for any of his investors to know that they were being scammed. If they had lost their money because the market collapsed, then yes, they gambled and lost. Their loss, however, was not the result of gambling on the market, but theft.
The fact that this guy is under house arrest is disgusting. If the justice system still works, he will spend the rest of his natural life in jail. And not Club Fed - a real, pound-you-in-the-ass prison.
Quote from: Statler on January 25, 2009, 04:02:15 PM
I see zero correlation between this and falling for a scam.
because they were and are both scams.
just because Bernie covered his better makes it no less a scam. no more or less evil.
just because the education and common sense level of Bernies victims is higher makes the end result no less different. they all got scammed in the end.
and as stated before..... it, IMO, is a gamble be it legit or a scam.
if the ladys investments took a shit and everything has handled legit..... the end result is the same.
it all involved risk and trust in somebody other than themselves.
Quote from: CowboyBeebop on January 25, 2009, 04:21:53 PM
The fact that this guy is under house arrest is disgusting. If the justice system still works, he will spend the rest of his natural life in jail. And not Club Fed - a real, pound-you-in-the-ass prison.
make the beast with two backs that.... seize his assets...then put a bullet in his head.
send a message
BP, keep in mind that not only did Madoff "cover" his scam with paperwork, as you said, but was twice investigated by the SEC and found to be legit. Now, if I were investing in an entity and knew that the govt regulatory agency in charge of that said that they were legit, I would be more likely to invest with them, rather than say, playing 3 card monty in Times Square like some dipshit friend of mine did about 10 yrs ago.
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 04:25:30 PM
because they were and are both scams.
and as stated before..... it, IMO, is a gamble be it legit or a scam.
if the ladys investments took a shit and everything has handled legit..... the end result is the same.
it all involved risk and trust in somebody other than themselves.
I'm not sure I understand you argument, but that's never stopped me from shooting of my mouth.
Taking your gambling analogy, are there not rules to games of chance? Before you play, do you not know the probability of winning and losing? Do the dice weigh properly, are a certain number of cards in the deck, etc? If one changes those rules without making the changes known, what was once gambling is now cheating. There are rules to investing. Madoff cheated. Therefor, the losese incurred by his clients were not the result of their gamble, but his cheating.
Quote from: CowboyBeebop on January 25, 2009, 04:21:53 PM
What Madoff was selling was a hedge fund, which are about as high-risk an investment as you can make. Further, to invest 100% of one's savings in any one vehicle - never mind a hedge fund - is monumentally stupid. Doing those two things is not unlike gambling.
i don't think it's exactly that simple... it's my understanding that "Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC" was acting as a brokerage company executing trades for other institutions (including hedge funds, banks, charities, etc) as well as an investment advisory business.
the "scam" was bernie advising these entities to invest in his personally-managed, traded-by-his-brokerage funds that weren't actually comprised of any investments.
also, by definition, hedge funds
shouldn't be riskier than other non-hedged investments. that, of course, would depend on the aggressiveness of the fund manager.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_fund)
As the name implies, hedge funds often seek to offset potential losses in the principal markets they invest in by hedging their investments using a variety of methods, most notably short selling. However, the term "hedge fund" has come to be applied to many funds that do not actually hedge their investments, and in particular to funds using short selling and other "hedging" methods to increase rather than reduce risk, with the expectation of increasing return.
Quote from: derby on January 25, 2009, 04:37:50 PM
are you sure about that? it's my understanding that "Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC" was acting as a brokerage company executing trades for other institutions (including hedge funds, banks, charities, etc) as well as an investment advisory business.
the "scam" was bernie advising these entities to invest in his personally-managed funds that weren't actually comprised of any investments.
"Hedge fund" is a lose term, but as I understand it, his fund claimed to employ a fairly complicated collar strategy. What I was referring to by "selling" was his marketing of his fund, which was in fact a Ponzi scheme. Even if it had not been a scam, his investors should have known that his fund was more than a simple index or mutual fund.
Quote from: swampduc on January 25, 2009, 04:33:16 PM
BP, keep in mind that not only did Madoff "cover" his scam with paperwork, as you said, but was twice investigated by the SEC and found to be legit. Now, if I were investing in an entity and knew that the govt regulatory agency in charge of that said that they were legit, I would be more likely to invest with them, rather than say, playing 3 card monty in Times Square like some dipshit friend of mine did about 10 yrs ago.
investments as defined by me ;)
I use money I earned to build something, grow something, sell something. with my involvement. = less risky
I give somebody my earned money, be they known or unknown to build something, grow something, sell something. without my involvement = gamble
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 03:36:26 PM
Whats the differance between her and that kid who sunk him familys money into a nigerian scam?
Nothing.
The kid thought he was going to make money using money...same as the lady. The scam was just packaged differently.
Why do people laugh at him, and the turn around and feel sorry for Bernies victims?
And, as stated before..... a bullet to Bernies head is warranted...same goes for anybody scamming people out of money.
Au contraire... ;D
The lady was greedy...
the kid?...
greedy...
and really really stupid.
Huge difference. ;)
Quote from: swampduc on January 25, 2009, 04:33:16 PM
BP, keep in mind that not only did Madoff "cover" his scam with paperwork, as you said, but was twice investigated by the SEC and found to be legit. Now, if I were investing in an entity and knew that the govt regulatory agency in charge of that said that they were legit, I would be more likely to invest with them, rather than say, playing 3 card monty in Times Square like some dipshit friend of mine did about 10 yrs ago.
wait,...........i've done that.
true story, but i knew it was a scam, that i was ultimately going to lose, and i "invested" accordingly.
i may be displaying more of my ignorance here... but what the hell.
could "individuals" (other than super rich types) actually invest directly with madoff? my understanding was that many of his clients where institutions (municipalities, unions, pension funds, schools) which were simply looking for growth investments, as a place to park excess capital. other clients may have been my bank, also looking for a strong return on investment, or a brokerage firm, investing its money market fund.
Quote from: bobspapa on January 25, 2009, 03:56:56 PM
maybe it's just my perspective.
my entire life..... I made my money using my back.
I understand buying and selling real things. food, toys, shelter, transportation.
I dont understand selling the paper version of those things, and to me.... thats a big gamble.
So.....you're judging something you specifically state you don't understand? Do you see a problem with that?
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 26, 2009, 10:47:46 AM
So.....you're judging something you specifically state you don't understand? Do you see a problem with that?
nope..
i'm human and I prefer to base my judgements ala the two second soundbite
plus.... I covered that by using the word "maybe" [laugh]