Well, the engine swap wasn't the issue.
I have discovered that the 750 ecu and 900 ecu are not interchangeable
The harnesses have different pinouts.
Details as follows:
900plug, left to right, top to bottom, mismatches between plugs are in red (as viewed from the ecu's perspective)
yellow/gray - blank - white/red (or red/white) - blk - blk - blank - brown
green - pink/blk 1 - blue/blk 2 - red/blue (or blue/red) - gray - gray/blk 3
blank - white - blue - yellow - white - white/purple 4
red - blank - blue/white - blue/gray - blank - orange/blue - brown
____________________________________________________________________________
750 plug, left to right, top to bottom, mismatches between plugs are in red
yellow/gray - blank - white/red - black - black - blank - brown
green - blank - blank - red/black - gray - pink/black
blank - white - blue - yellow - white - purple
red - blank - black/white - blue/gray (or gray/blue) - blank - orange/blue - brown
____________________________________________________________________________
I have a spare 900 harness (hacked, but traceable) that Im using for reference.
Near as I can tell, on that harness, 1 goes to the relay that's up by the ecu. On the 750 it has a plug, on the 900 harness it's hard wired.
2 goes to a 2 pin plug with yellow weather packing (3 position, only two used) and I don't know what this is for as the 750 is track only, and is missing any extraneous wiring.
3 goes to a 2 pin white plastic plug, that goes to the starter solenoid
4 goes to one of the fuel injector plugs
As I see it, 4 won't matter as the pin on the ecu matches the fuel injector on the bike, so that should work.
3 Im having trouble with as the starter solenoid plug uses wires of a different color and pin location on the ecu plug. Not sure what I'll do about that yet.
1 and 2 are obvious as they're missing from the 750 harness. I had thought about switching plugs but that's a lot of cutting and soldering that Im not sure I want to get into.
As the bike sits now, it will crank, but the fuel pump will not run when plugged into the 900 ecu.
What's the easy way to get this thing to run?
The best way to get it running would be an wiring harness & ECU that match the engine. Do you have wiring diagrams for both the bike the engine came from and your bike? Your post makes it sound as though you are going by wire color & what they plug into only. Diff. ECU's can contol components differently; switched power vs switched ground, PWM, ect. Are you using the 900 ECU or the 750, does the bike/ECU have an emobilizer?
What year 900 ecu are you running and what year 750 harness are you trying to get to work?
I know the 750 is a 99
The 900 engine and ecu are from about the same time period as the 99 750 frame. I do not know the exact year but there is no immobilizer on it. As I recall the seller said it was a 99 or 2000 maybe.
Is the engine/ecu from an SS or Monster?
Quote from: ducpainter on February 01, 2009, 05:58:59 AM
Is the engine/ecu from an SS or Monster?
I think Nate's on the right track here.
First off, it's a 1.5 ECU system. And from what I'm seeing it's the same issue I had when I tried to swap a 1.5 ECU from an SS into my Monster. Basically it wouldn't run and the fuel pump would do funny things. This was because a few pinouts were different between the 2 ECU's for each the SS and the Monster.
So basically I suggest trying an ECU from the other type and I think it will work.
Nate, I take it this was your old 750?
Quote from: ducpainter on February 01, 2009, 05:58:59 AM
Is the engine/ecu from an SS or Monster?
It's all from a 900ss...
Yes, this is my old SS.
I'm wondering if the 900SS had the same mixture of ecu/ignition as the earliest monsters where the ecu controlled only fuel.
We need someone that knows something. :P
Quote from: ducpainter on February 01, 2009, 03:06:17 PM
Yes, this is my old SS.
I'm wondering if the 900SS had the same mixture of ecu/ignition as the earliest monsters where the ecu controlled only fuel.
We need someone that knows something. :P
Thats what I was thinking.
When I got an extra ECU from Stew a while back to have flashed by BCM they explained that there were actually 2 different ECU's (one for the SS and one for the Monster) even though they looked identical, the numbers on them were slightly different.
Anyway. I've got an extra one for a monster that you're welcome to borrow to confirm. Jay's got it up at ECS at the moment.
Just let me know.
Terry
Quote from: 2001cromo on February 01, 2009, 03:15:48 PM
Thats what I was thinking.
When I got an extra ECU from Stew a while back to have flashed by BCM they explained that there were actually 2 different ECU's (one for the SS and one for the Monster) even though they looked identical, the numbers on them were slightly different.
Anyway. I've got an extra one for a monster that you're welcome to borrow to confirm. Jay's got it up at ECS at the moment.
Just let me know.
Terry
Terry,
I'd love to try an M900 ecu to see what happens!
Ill PM my address (I'd cover shipping) but hold off on sending it. Somewhere I have a M900ie service manual scanned to .pdf on a CD. If I can find it I can check the wiring colors and locations off the ecu and probably get a good idea if it will match up.
If it looks like it will I'll let you know.
[thumbsup]
IIRC (& I'm drunk right now) there was a wiring harness change between '99 & '00-'02 and it involved the wiring going into the ecu making the '99 SS ecu a one year only thingy.
So, you might be hosed w/o a '99 SS900 ecu (or '98 SS900 ecu from Europe)...
I have the ss900 ecu but not sure of the exact year. The harness is 99 750ss
Ok, so call me crazy, but why not use a Monster harness and ECU that might just be a little more common?
Completely different plugs for the gauges and the components are more spread out on the SS.
And (sober now) I *know* there are differences between the '99 (& European '98) SS ecu's & the '00 - '02 bikes. It may be easier to have the '99 SS750i.e. ecu reflashed with DP900 specs as the internal components of the ecu are the same, just the programming is different.
BTW, I don't have any '99 SS900i.e. ecu's hangin' around...
**************************************UPDATE****************************************
I plugged in the 750ecu tonight just to see if I could get it to start.
It cranked.
And cranked.
And cranked and cranked and cranked and then I got one singular puff out the exhaust. I checked spark and fuel on both cylinders and was good.
What seemed to help was putting my battery charger on full boil while cranking. I suspect it was a battery voltage issue as it fired up finally.
It ran, and reved up great!! Throttle response was killer!
But it would not idle.
I decided that since the fast idle lever and cable was gone I'd get it going and run it at 2k or so until it warmed up a little.
That worked. It idled fine!! Sounds mean!! [evil] [moto] [evil]
So Im pretty happy that it runs at least. This confirms that the engine is good, and that I put it all back together correctly. That's cam belts, and all the gears I could get at without splitting the case open.
However, idling and reving up in my garage is one thing, hard on the gas out of a corner in 3rd gear is another. I wish I had some way to tell if the 750 ecu was enough for a 900 or not.
There is a bike dyno about a block away. I could just ride this thing there when the snow melts and we could give it a run.
Right now the plan is to get myself a 99 900ss, 99 750ss and 00 M900 electrical diagram to see what's similar and what's not.
Does anyone have access to these diagrams? Google is failing me right now.
Quote from: Monsterlover on February 02, 2009, 06:07:20 PM
**************************************UPDATE****************************************
I plugged in the 750ecu tonight just to see if I could get it to start.
It cranked.
And cranked.
And cranked and cranked and cranked and then I got one singular puff out the exhaust. I checked spark and fuel on both cylinders and was good.
What seemed to help was putting my battery charger on full boil while cranking. I suspect it was a battery voltage issue as it fired up finally.
It ran, and reved up great!! Throttle response was killer!
But it would not idle.
I decided that since the fast idle lever and cable was gone I'd get it going and run it at 2k or so until it warmed up a little.
That worked. It idled fine!! Sounds mean!! [evil] [moto] [evil]
So Im pretty happy that it runs at least. This confirms that the engine is good, and that I put it all back together correctly. That's cam belts, and all the gears I could get at without splitting the case open.
However, idling and reving up in my garage is one thing, hard on the gas out of a corner in 3rd gear is another. I wish I had some way to tell if the 750 ecu was enough for a 900 or not.
There is a bike dyno about a block away. I could just ride this thing there when the snow melts and we could give it a run.
Right now the plan is to get myself a 99 900ss, 99 750ss and 00 M900 electrical diagram to see what's similar and what's not.
Does anyone have access to these diagrams? Google is failing me right now.
I had to do that when it was a seven fitty...
Did you pm ducvet?
Not yet.
Will do that tonight.
[thumbsup]
At least it runs
The '99 SS750 and '99 SS900 diagrams will be identical to help save some time. The '00 M900 (assuming the donor motor here) would be a good diagram to have also.
Your SS750 ecu should be reflashed with a DP SS900 program and that will be enough fuel to run the motor as god intended. NEVERMIND the sticker on the casing...that only tells you how it was originally programmed. Get it reflashed and ride on.
Not a bad plan.
How do I do that?
Also, the 900ss and 750ss ecus and harnesses I have are different. All the donor parts I have are from a 900ss that I thought was a 99, but now Im wondering if it isn't a 2000.
Would a PC2 be a better way to go?
Quote from: Monsterlover on February 02, 2009, 07:42:33 PM
Not a bad plan.
How do I do that?
Also, the 900ss and 750ss ecus and harnesses I have are different. All the donor parts I have are from a 900ss that I thought was a 99, but now Im wondering if it isn't a 2000.
Would a PC2 be a better way to go?
a PC III may be a better way to go, but I doubt it will adjust the ignition timing which was set up for a 750... *COULD* be a problem there.
As far as the reflash goes, I think Ferracci does it.
I contact them, thanks!
Do you still need those electrical diagrams? I have a Haynes Manual that includes all those models. The electrical diagrams are in color. The big but coming is that I would have to figure out my ancient scanner that I haven't used in years. If you would like me to give it a shot shot me a PM with an email address.
I do, pm comin' your way
[thumbsup]
the up to '99 ss models use the 1.5M.A0, the '00 ss onwards use the 1.5M.A8. the side stand switch input is the difference. the sticker on the back will have these markings. the A8 may work in an early bike, it may even run well, or not at all. we had a few issues with these with early dp ecu and applications thereof.
there is some other difference between monster and ss which meant that monster ecu didn't work in ss and visa versa. i don't recall fully now. we did also get a few dp ecu that wouldn't work in ss that worked in monsters from memory, altho marked as ss, that sort of thing.
plus all the 750ss and 900 ss models used the old green end feed injectors, whereas the 900m and then all other "new" injected 2v motors from '02 onward - 620, 750m, 800 and 1000 - used the pico iwp043, so the flow rates are a bit different too and the maps don't directly compare.
the 900 will need about 20% more fuel than the 750, as it's about 20% bigger. the spark maps are actually fairly similar, altho the 900m has quite a bit less spark at lower throttle over 4,000 rpm - in some places 15 degrees less than the ss. don't know why, buit i know it seems to give a wacky miss if you increase it to ss levels, as i tried it once.
the guzzi v11 also use the A0 ecu, even tho they also have a side stand switch.
with the ultimap software you can turn a 750 ecu into a 900 ecu by flashing in a 750 map then making a custom 750 map and flashing that then flashing a custom 900 map over that. custom meaning one you've modified in some way and saved as a custom map. in reality you need only change one cell, if at all. you just need to save it as a custom. this was because of how duane set up the "return to std feature" i think.
hth.
It does, thanks. I'll read it again when I'm home but it's a good start. I'll look at the ecus that I have and I'll post the part numbers just on the off chance someone can tell me what years the are from.
Thinking out loud. . .
what about one of these? (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110333093122&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AWNASIF%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=)
I know that leaves the ignition curve untouched . . .
given how similar the ignition maps are it'd probably be fine.
the 900 has a higher idle throttle position spec than the 750 too. 750 is 1.65 degrees, 900 is 2.4. otherwise you might end up with the air bleeds out an extra turn or so, which may lean out the low throttle fuelling quite a bit. just something to be aware of.
Are you talking degrees of timing or degrees of throttle plate open at idle?
Quote from: Monsterlover on February 10, 2009, 04:50:48 AM
Are you talking degrees of timing or degrees of throttle plate open at idle?
He's talking throttle plate AFAIK.
Time to resurrect this thread.
To update, I ended up getting a 99 900ss ecu and got the bike to run.
It did not last though.
Half way through my first track day I obliterated the rear piston into nothingness and locked up the gearbox with piston chunks.
It was running lean and i was too busy having fun on the track to fully realize it.
Front plug shows specs of alum on the ceramic.
I have a new to me 900 ie engine that Im going to put in there and I want this one to last.
I will pull the exact #'s off the ecu tonight and post them.
For reference, it's a 99 750ss harness, a 99 900ss ecu, stock airbox with lid and snorkels, DP exhaust cans.
The injectors are green tops and I reused the ones from the 750 engine as I knew they had been run more recently than the green tops that came with my 900 engine.
I was told they're the same flow rate.
The 900ss ecu is off ebay, and Im wondering if it's the stock map or not. Not sure how I'd tell.
Here are pics of the front and back of the ecu i ran. Seems to be a 1999 900ss ecu. . .
Does anyone think this is the wrong ecu?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/900SS/ECU.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/900SS/ECU2.jpg)