Bike finally has been running perfect, and yesterday while I'm headed back home, I see oil by the bottom cylinder. No smoke, no burning oil smell, oil is full. I took it to the shop, the mechanic says it's the base gasket leaking. Said that Ducati used the same engine in various bikes, that there's a channel for oil return that wasn't utilized on this model, as they used lines instead. That Ducati just sat a gasket to cover, and now mines leaking. Mentioned some trick of just putting a bearing in the hole to plug. Was quoted an estimate of $800. He basically said at this point, it's cosmetic, that the motor not in immediate danger. I'm just tired of the 1-2-issues. Come on guy's, y'all have yet to fail me. What's going on here and how can I fix it?
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3330/3531239523_a08f431ee7_o.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3582/3532055066_7c15b72259.jpg)
Sorry to say, but what you have there is a genuine base gasket leak. :(
Fairly common on '01 and '02 models, and not only S4.
The 'fix' is just as the tech told you.
Alternatively, you can use a setscrew to plug the hole, which is what I did on my S4.
It's a good bit of work to do it, so IMO that estimate isn't out of line.
If you're mechanically inclined, it's not a rocket science job.
There's a few traps to the job, so post up if you're going to try it yourself...
I would love to go at it myself. Where can I find a tutorial? And for Gawd's sake why did Ducati go about this? I just wanna ride! Thanks for your reply. You guy's have been a ton of help.
We can talk you through it.
I'll BRB with some info.
No 1. What kind of bike / model?
No 2. If it is the 600 / 620/ 900 etc family you need to pull the vertical head off and then the cylinder off. The piston also off. There is a metal gasket at the base of the cylinder that will come off. Clean both sides of the metal gasket and coat BOTH SIDES with threebond or a tube of Duc sealer. Before the sealer goes "off" put the piston and cylinder back on. At this point you will need to replace the "O" ring/s between the cylinder and head and then bolt everything down to spec. A small amount of sealer will squeeze out when torqued down but that can be cleaned up afterwards. Refit all parts that were removed etc and the exhaust header etc and go for a ride. Any questions....give me / forum a shout
He has an S4...916
What size sockets, bolt keys will be involved? If anyone could post a tutorial, that would be great. I do have the S4 parts manual, so that kinda gives me an idea of what is what, and what's bolted in sequence. Is there an online service manual?
you could check duc.nu for downloadable manuals.
Thank you sir, great help. I may go with some race pistons/rings while I'm in. May be a blessing in disguise.
Here's a little info in a previous thread:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=4704.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=4704.0)
This is going to be a long write-up, so I'll do it in stages as I have time available, updating it here.
I may juggle the order of stuff as I go, so bear with me...
Take pictures and notes as you go, it makes reassembly a lot easier.
"Tutorial"
Fuel tank Removal
Remove the seat.
It's best to empty the tank as much as possible first (Usual warning about open flames in the vicinity).
A) You can use a 'squeeze-bulb' fuel pump (available from boat shops), to get most of the fuel out.
I suggest you make some plugs beforehand, using short lengths of 5/16" fuel line that are plugged on one end.
Then remove the hoses from the bottom of the tank.
A good bit of fuel will still come out, so have a couple shoprags underneath.
If you're quick, you can pull the line and install the plug without too much gas coming out.
B) You can use this opportunity to install some fuel line quick-disconnects, Motion-Pro sells 'em, get two of the 5/16" size.
Assuming you've still got the OEM fuel lines that drop down past the belt cover...
Pick a spot on the lines where the disconnects will be accessible, but not in the way, like near the vertical frame tube.
Clamp one hose closed back towards the rear of the tank, then cut the fuel line, have a shoprag under it to catch the bit of fuel that will come out.
Install the 'female' QD in the end of the hose that connects to the tank.
Snip a length of hose about equal to the length of the QD from the line that goes to the throttle body, then install the 'male' QD in the end of that hose.
Do the same for the other fuel line.
Disconnect the electrical plug on the bottom of the tank.
Disconnect the vent lines.
Pull the clip on the pivot pin at the rear of the tank, remove the washer, and push the pin out.
Remove the tank.
Radiator Removal
Get a catch pan for the coolant, and have some shoprags handy, you'll make a bit of a mess.
Partially remove the lower radiator hose at the radiator, coolant will start coming out *fast*, so if you just pull the hose off a little bit, you can control it.
When it's finished draining, remove the upper hose and the small hose that goes to the catch tank.
Disconnect the electrical plugs for the fans.
Disconnect the lower radiator bracket.
Remove the upper retaining bolt.
Drop the left side of the radiator down, and wiggle the radiator while pushing *gently* to the right, disengaging the right upper mount.
CAUTION: The radiator mount ears are *very* soft, it's easy to bend them, be patient.
Pull the radiator out.
Exhaust System Removal
Remove the cans.
Loosen the clamp where the rear headpipe joins the midpipe.
Remove the nuts on the pipe flange that attaches to the horizontal cylinder head.
Remove the midpipe.
Remove the nuts on the pipe flange that attaches to the vertical cylinder head.
This is a PITA, it will help a *lot* if you have a 10mm universal joint socket.
General Stuff
Remove the battery.
Detach the relay assembly and master fuse from the left side of the battery tray.
Remove the bolts holding the battery tray, drape the whole thing over the right side of the frame.
Pull the fusebox out of the grommets that hold it to the battery tray bracket.
Remove the nuts holding the battery tray bracket, detach the starter solenoid from the bottom of said bracket, and remove the bracket..
Disconnect the coil wires from the coils.
Pull the coils out of the heads.
Remove the spark plugs.
Belt Covers and Belts
Remove the vertical and horizontal belt covers.
Remove the wire on the oil pressure switch.
Remove the middle belt cover.
It'll be a little zen puzzle to fish it out, be patient and don't force it.
The little notch on the bottom will allow it to slip part the oil pressure switch.
Rotate the engine until the cam drive pulley hashmark aligns with the hashmark on the sidecover.
Note the positions of the hashmarks on the cam pullies, and how they line up with the marks on the heads.
Loosen the locknuts on the belt tensioner rollers.
Remove the belts, and mark them for direction and location.
Rotate the vertical intake cam pulley until it 'springs' free.
It may do that on it's own.
It should rotate freely between about 3 O'clock and 10 O'clock position of the hashmark.
This is *important*, as then the intake valves are closed.
Rotate the engine until the drive pulley hashmark is at about 9 O'clock, this is approximately TDC on the vertical cylinder.
MORE INFO LATER
Link to previous post, A BIG help. While I'm in, any suggestions on upgrades? I know the breather will be replaced, hell , I'll try the foot powder, may be that, but like your thinking SpeedDog, most likely the base gasket/gallery leak. I want to turn this into a learning/upgrade experience. Tired of giving money to the dicks at the local shop. I'm taking my business over to Corse MotorSports per ATO. Alain is out for 3 weeks though, so i had to book an appt. Again, many thanks.
Ok, I've ran about ten miles after I cleaned the engine case with cleaner, washed the whole bike down. No pooling by the gallery, but I did notice this today:
The bolt to the rear set/rear break, right below the clutch housing. Some oil streaking.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2135/3536505358_b8b71b0832_o.jpg)
After looking at the service manual, and determining what I'm looking at, this is on the same side as the breather. My hose looks pretty dry rotted coming out of the unit. I guess all I can do is ride, and keep a watch, and if it happens, clean, then try the foot powder to find the source. I'm going to buy a tool set today. I'm dead set to tackle this myself, and learn about this bike. When I have the mechanics in order, I'm starting this project full force. Powder coated frame/tank/wheels. I love this damn bike, and will not give up on him yet. I almost convinced myself to spend $13K for an 08' KTM Super Duke. Why? When I can have my own, custom creation, that I know has been done correctly. Now where's a good place to purchase the Ducati special tools, or is there an alternative?
Quote from: fouramdesigns on May 16, 2009, 09:47:05 AM
Ok, I've ran about ten miles after I cleaned the engine case with cleaner, washed the whole bike down. No pooling by the gallery, but I did notice this today:
The bolt to the rear set/rear break, right below the clutch housing. Some oil streaking.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2135/3536505358_b8b71b0832_o.jpg)
That's most likely clutch dust.
Any more info for me? About to tackle this job.
Apparently someone has had this fixed by Ducati out of warranty in the past. Wonder if there's a chance to still have this done?
http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/112980-base-gasket-leaking.html (http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/112980-base-gasket-leaking.html)
Quote from: fouramdesigns on May 21, 2009, 03:48:20 PM
Apparently someone has had this fixed by Ducati out of warranty in the past. Wonder if there's a chance to still have this done?
http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/112980-base-gasket-leaking.html (http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/112980-base-gasket-leaking.html)
Well, you could give it a shot, worst they can do is say no.
More info on the how-to soon.
'Tutorial' post updated...
Edit
---------------
Link to my previous post:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=23736.msg419236#msg419236 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=23736.msg419236#msg419236)
Quote from: Speeddog on May 23, 2009, 08:30:40 AM
'Tutorial' post updated...
Thanks man, I really appreciate you taking the time.
I'm going to keep within this post as not to have multiple post. I've documented my progress thus far with pictures.
I've pulled the tank, radiator, plugs, disconnected related hoses, and disassembled the air box. This is what I've found so far:
The air box seemed to have a little oily residue in the lower portion of it. Had no visible color, I'm thinking it may be the oil from the charging kit for the BMC filter.
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3298/3582707859_4b006db975.jpg)
As I got the intake stacks off, I noticed oil around the intake ring, now I'm getting worried. Also the lower vent hose on the air box has a little oily reside, I'm assuming coming from the small accumulation in the air box compartment.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2480/3583514216_32449bd48d.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3388/3582706309_7c15fff3c1.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3640/3583514816_b2bc62bdbc.jpg)
This is my DP ECU that came with the Termi cans. Thought an identification of what the bike has as far as fuel/exhaust etc may help.
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/3582708031_14fb08f36c.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3583516338_1c62068cd4.jpg)
I get the plugs pulled, the ones I just installed 4 weeks ago, The top plug's has a lot of soot accumulation, and smells of gas. The lower (2nd) is rusty, was some moisture on the plug boot, I assume from being lower to the road, and driving in the rain a few times?
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3593/3582705849_ce213b6f21_o.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3554/3582705573_13334e357f.jpg)
And the lower exhaust gasket, seemed to have a little oily residue on the gasket itself, as well has the manifold.
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3306/3583513382_568d96c1d5.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3348/3582705017_4ff7689c50_o.jpg)
And last for now, this is my right Termi can that was damaged when my bike fell over on me while trying to unload it on a single ramp. Wonder if there's an exhaust leak?
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3582705293_b8807be06b.jpg)
So it appears I may have several issues with the S4. This is my only means of transportation at the moment, so I need to find the issue/issues, and get this bike back on the road. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Spencer
A little high temperature sealant and a rivet should fix that can up just fine.
Some oil film in the intake tract is normal.
The plugs? How was the bike running before? If, other than the base gasket leak, the bike ran fine and was just started and not warmed up the plug may not have cleaned itself off yet.
Thanks for the reply. The bike has been running terrible, started last week. I ran out of gas, so while I have the tank off, I'm replacing the filter, just can't figure out how to get inside the tank. I took off the cap, and the 8 or 10 small allen screws around the rim, but it won't lift out, not sure if I'm doing that right. But by the looks of the plugs, they look pretty fouled up. When I flog the throttle, the bike barely accelerates, so I've got multiple issues here.
Oh well. At this point I think you are on the best track since you can't do much without the bike running. Dump the old gas, replace the filter and pray to the motorcycle gods. If the bike still runs like crap when you put it back together post again. The cap will need a little persuasion to come out, a little nudge with a hammer handle should do it. Do be careful though, you don't want to damage the tank. Putting it back is fun too! Grease on the O ring and firm pressure are needed.
Quote from: fouramdesigns on May 31, 2009, 08:34:24 PM
Thanks for the reply. The bike has been running terrible, started last week. I ran out of gas, so while I have the tank off, I'm replacing the filter, just can't figure out how to get inside the tank. I took off the cap, and the 8 or 10 small allen screws around the rim, but it won't lift out, not sure if I'm doing that right. But by the looks of the plugs, they look pretty fouled up. When I flog the throttle, the bike barely accelerates, so I've got multiple issues here.
Stick a hammer handle in the opening at an angle and give it a rap with your hand. To replace grease the flange and the o-ring and push or tap in.
speeddog ...you are the man [thumbsup]
I'm stopped, or should I say stuck on the belt removal. I've yet to figure out how to align TDC etc. I looked briefly as I finished up for the day, and did not see any marking to align hash marks. I'm also going to hit the valves while I'm this far in. What special tools are required for the job? I read the Ca-Cycleworks has a video tutorial available.
What kind of mechanical experience do you have?
I'm thinking this is a large best left to someone with experience or alternative means of transportation.
Definately should buy a couple of manuals...
However, if you are committed, There is a dot on the pulley which aligns with a dash on the case- It is at abut 7 oclock This will give you TDC (can't remember if on H or V cyclinder) stick a long screwdriver in the spark plug hole and watch as you rotate the motor. TDC of the compression stroke for the opposite cylinder is 270 degrees from that point...
Good Luck
Quote from: gage on June 01, 2009, 12:03:02 PM
What kind of mechanical experience do you have?
Good Luck
Well I've worked on my Honda's, Mercedes, on an oil platform running a hydraulic workover rig. Pretty good with instructions, just need them at this point, I can follow along, and am pretty technically inclined. I guess I will pick up the Desmo Times manual from Ca Cycleworks. Speeddog has been a big help and getting me in the right direction. Also, what's the screwdriver in the cylinder accomplish, does it indicate when TDC has been reached by stopping?
Quote from: fouramdesigns on June 01, 2009, 01:15:49 PM
Also, what's the screwdriver in the cylinder accomplish, does it indicate when TDC has been reached by stopping?
Yes, TDC is achieved when the screwdriver is at max height.
It's good to see some one go for it. The only way to learn how to do it.
With the cam drive pulley at 7 O'Clock ....it's mark should line up with the hashmark on the
This will put the marks on the horizontal cam pulleys at 12 O'Clock for the intake and 6 O'Clock for the exhaust.
Verticals will be at nearly 12 O'Clock.
With the crank in that position, the horizontal cylinder is at TDC fire.
That's the position that you should remove and install the belts.
After removing the belts, ensure that all cams rotate freely a bit, rotating forward and back.
When you take the vertical belt off, the intake cam *may* rotate rather strongly on it's own, due to the closer springs.
Don't let it pinch you when the belt comes off.
If you rotate the engine so that the cam drive pulley is at 9 O'Clock, the vertical cylinder is at TDC overlap.
With the belts off, always confirm that all valves are closed before turning the crank.
Quote from: Speeddog on June 01, 2009, 10:03:07 PM
With the cam drive pulley at 7 O'Clock ....it's mark should line up with the hashmark on the ......?
Do I turn the crank with the special tool (haven't bought yet), or can I just rotate the rear wheel while my bikes on the rear stand? I ordered the Desmo Times manual from Ca Cycleworks, hopefully that will be in by the time I hit the valve job.
Quote from: fouramdesigns on June 02, 2009, 05:51:19 AM
Do I turn the crank with the special tool (haven't bought yet), or can I just rotate the rear wheel while my bikes on the rear stand? I ordered the Desmo Times manual from Ca Cycleworks, hopefully that will be in by the time I hit the valve job.
Put the bike in sixth gear and rotate the wheel
Quote from: Speeddog on May 15, 2009, 09:20:41 AM
B) You can use this opportunity to install some fuel line quick-disconnects, Motion-Pro sells 'em, get two of the 5/16" size.
Assuming you've still got the OEM fuel lines that drop down past the belt cover...
Pick a spot on the lines where the disconnects will be accessible, but not in the way, like near the vertical frame tube.
Clamp one hose closed back towards the rear of the tank, then cut the fuel line, have a shoprag under it to catch the bit of fuel that will come out.
Install the 'female' QD in the end of the hose that connects to the tank.
Snip a length of hose about equal to the length of the QD from the line that goes to the throttle body, then install the 'male' QD in the end of that hose.
Do the same for the other fuel line.
How many feet of hose should I order from Motion Pro?
Quote from: fouramdesigns on May 16, 2009, 12:46:38 PM
After looking at the service manual, and determining what I'm looking at, this is on the same side as the breather. My hose looks pretty dry rotted coming out of the unit. I guess all I can do is ride, and keep a watch, and if it happens, clean, then try the foot powder to find the source. I'm going to buy a tool set today. I'm dead set to tackle this myself, and learn about this bike. When I have the mechanics in order, I'm starting this project full force. Powder coated frame/tank/wheels. I love this damn bike, and will not give up on him yet. I almost convinced myself to spend $13K for an 08' KTM Super Duke. Why? When I can have my own, custom creation, that I know has been done correctly. Now where's a good place to purchase the Ducati special tools, or is there an alternative?
You won't need any "special" tools. Sears sells everything you will need. A good piston ring compressor that comes apart makes life much easier. This is what I have. http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdengi08.html (http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdengi08.html)
Quote from: fouramdesigns on June 02, 2009, 11:40:40 AM
How many feet of hose should I order from Motion Pro?
You can use the hose that's there, you only need to snip out the length of hose that the QD takes, about 1 1/2".
Regarding tools, you will *definitely* need a piston ring compressor.
The oil rings are cast iron, and are very fragile. DAMHIK.
Also, you will need a special wrench to torque down the head nuts.
Quote from: Speeddog on June 02, 2009, 01:45:29 PM
You can use the hose that's there, you only need to snip out the length of hose that the QD takes, about 1 1/2".
Regarding tools, you will *definitely* need a piston ring compressor.
The oil rings are cast iron, and are very fragile. DAMHIK.
Also, you will need a special wrench to torque down the head nuts.
Yeah I saw the torque wrench at Sears, I assume the torque specs will be in the Desmo Times manual? Thanks guys for all the help. Just sucks I have another issue that I'm not so sure of once I get this all back together, but first things first.
Special wrench like this:
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/2782054367_e55bbcf36e_o.jpg)
Garden variety combination wrench with a socket welded on.
A bit of grinding on the box end was necessary to get it to fit in.
Quote from: Speeddog on June 02, 2009, 03:27:03 PM
Special wrench like this:
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/2782054367_e55bbcf36e_o.jpg)
Garden variety combination wrench with a socket welded on.
A bit of grinding on the box end was necessary to get it to fit in.
What do I use that for? I thought I torque wrench was needed to torque the heads? Where does this come in? I don't have access to a welder at the moment, so where would I get this on the net?
You need it for torquing the head nuts.
Ca-Cycleworks may have 'em.
I have done this job on 2 S4s and a M1000 but found I did not need to remove piston. Time taken 6 hours in total.
Quote from: jerryz on June 03, 2009, 04:34:37 AM
I have done this job on 2 S4s and a M1000 but found I did not need to remove piston. Time taken 6 hours in total.
Likewise, but only on one S4, I do believe that the OP was going to install Hi Compression pistons while he was in there though. Took me closer to 8 hours and I had to borrow the tool mentioned above.
Quote from: gage on June 03, 2009, 08:00:53 AM
Likewise, but only on one S4, I do believe that the OP was going to install Hi Compression pistons while he was in there though. Took me closer to 8 hours and I had to borrow the tool mentioned above.
I decided not to. Just the basic base gasket fix, valve adjustment.
Got Desmo Times manual in yesterday. LT is freakin' hilarious. So I guess I begin this project this weekend. Just a little nervouse about TDC and the belts. I suppose I will fix the gasket leak first, then hit the valve adjustment.
If your taking the heads off then do the valve adjust on the table. Much easier IMO.
Quote from: Ducaholic on June 05, 2009, 06:47:43 AM
If your taking the heads off then do the valve adjust on the table. Much easier IMO.
A big +1 on that.
Quote from: fouramdesigns on June 05, 2009, 05:56:35 AM
Just a little nervouse about TDC and the belts.
You will eventually consider this the easiest part [thumbsup]
I put the Duc in 6th, rotated the rear wheel, so I use a long screw driver, and wait till it pops straight up, that's TDC? Then what?
Quote from: fouramdesigns on June 06, 2009, 12:20:22 PM
I put the Duc in 6th, rotated the rear wheel, so I use a long screw driver, and wait till it pops straight up, that's TDC? Then what?
I know this may be obvious, so please excuse if you already know this, you must make sure you are at the top of the compression stroke. The best way to do this is to hold your thumb over the spark plug hole until you feel pressure, other wise you may be finding TDC of the exhaust stroke. Then just when the screwdriver stops moving up, before it starts back down again is TDC
I pu**ied out, taking it to Corse Motorsports. If I'm lucky, they'll let me watch. Too scared to cause damage.
Let us know how it works out
Dang dude, don't puss out. take pictures and everyone here will walk you through it.
Quote from: fouramdesigns on June 06, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
I pu**ied out, taking it to Corse Motorsports. If I'm lucky, they'll let me watch. Too scared to cause damage.
Doing the valves is not that hard... Base gasket repair is no joke I think you may have saved yourself a lot of frustration and downtime.
I would still attempt the valves if I were you. When I did my S4 the first time (First experience with Desmo Valves) I worked step by step using LT's book and split the task up over several nights.
Man I work full time at Dell, am a recording engineer, boyfriend etc. I decided to let Corse do the work, I volunteered to come in and turn wrenches. We're dropping the motor, getting the frame powder coated. Maybe all a blessing in disguise. I was just scared trying to find TDC, getting it all back together, running compression test etc. We're getting this thing running for once.
Still waiting. Hopefully should be done in 3-4 weeks. The vision in my head is nasty. Let's hope for the best
Bike is done, motor turned out to be solid. Thanks to Alain and Phil at Corse Motorsports Nashville. Will pick up shortly, waiting on some goodies from Pigmy. Now to decide on new Termi's, MiVV or Ex Box. Wish I had the time to send to Boom Tubes.