Ive contacted Barnett regarding their red friction material clutch packs, and after I told them I was using Speedy Moto springs, i got this email back.... Because I dont want to be misquoted, ill just copy and paste the whole email.
QuoteI have compared our Ducati spring, the Speedy Moto spring, and the OEM spring for your bike (#0659.16.555) and found something interesting that I believe is the cause of your premature clutch failure. While our spring is the same tension as the OEM spring at 1' compressed, the Speedy Moto spring is about 4 lbs lighter. When multiplied by six, you are getting 24 lbs less spring pressure. This will definitely cause the clutch to fail in a short amount of time. I strongly recommend using our springs or the OEM springs regardless of the clutch pack you choose to install.
I know that many people go with the Speedy Moto springs because they offer them in stainless and they are a bit more attractive than the OEM springs or our powdercoated gold springs. However, if they aren't the proper tension, it's not worth it. In the very near future, we will be introducing new spring sets for the dry clutch models. These springs will be an attractive black powdercoat and will include your choice of red, black, gold, or clear anodize spring cups and stainless spring screws. As soon as they are in production, they will added to our website and you will most likely start seeing the press releases in the magazines in the near future.
Chris Taylor
Barnett Tool & Eng.
Ive also contacted Speedy Moto and asked them what they know about this problem.
Ive always been under the assumption that the stainless Steel SPeedymoto springs were heavier than the stock springs...Whats the truth?
They feel stiffer to me. Plus, what about all the people that pull two springs to ease the pull. Have those people experienced accelerated clutch wear?
I wasn't extremely fond of the way the red friction barnett pack wore on my m900 either. Then again I drag the clutch a lot at stop lights which causes them to wear fast.
i havent abused my clutch at all with the barnet pack (mostly because the opportunity never arised), so its been basically under commuting use.
Quote from: NAKID on July 15, 2009, 06:14:21 PM
They feel stiffer to me. Plus, what about all the people that pull two springs to ease the pull. Have those people experienced accelerated clutch wear?
that depends, im sure it does, but how at what point does the pressure start to accelerate wear noticeably? i think its just a way for them to get out of admitting their friction material sucks.
Quote from: He Man on July 15, 2009, 06:42:53 PM
i think its just a way for them to get out of admitting their friction material sucks.
I think that's exactly what it is...
This is an interesting thread. Hopefully others will weigh in.
I just installed SpeedyMoto springs after I "He-Man-ed" my clutch hub. [cheeky]
Quote from: He Man on July 15, 2009, 05:56:38 PM
Ive contacted Barnett regarding their red friction material clutch packs, and after I told them I was using Speedy Moto springs, i got this email back.... Because I dont want to be misquoted, ill just copy and paste the whole email.
Ive also contacted Speedy Moto and asked them what they know about this problem.
Ive always been under the assumption that the stainless Steel SPeedymoto springs were heavier than the stock springs...Whats the truth?
Dude, there is no way your clutch should be wearing so fast, not on your bike.
Hell, in my 996 the Barnett Clutch pack that was installed survived almost 10k miles and a bunch of trackdays. Also, I know that the previous owner could not ride worth shit. Something ain't right on your bike.
I must have missed something...did your (He Man's) clutch wear out prematurely?
Based on clutch slip? Are you sure there's no oil leak onto the plates?
Quote from: pompetta on July 16, 2009, 06:45:33 AM
I must have missed something...did your (He Man's) clutch wear out prematurely?
Based on clutch slip? Are you sure there's no oil leak onto the plates?
Yup, IIRC about 5 months ago he changed out the clutch.
One of the first things I did to my bike was a Speedymoto pressure plate with Speedymoto stainless springs. I have over 20000 mi. on her and I am still using the stock clutch pack with no issues.
I like the idea of the powdercoated springs Barnett says they will offer but I think that it will not make that big a difference.
Quote from: El Matador on July 16, 2009, 06:48:13 AM
Yup, IIRC about 5 months ago he changed out the clutch.
i changed it out somewhere along that time, and didnt start riding till summer school started (6 weeks ago)
I think their explanation is BS.
1. I've had Speedymoto springs on my bike for over 13K miles now...no problems. I still have the stock friction plates, but if the lower pressure hurts their plates, then it should hurt ALL plates. If it only affects their plates, then something is wrong with their plates.
2. Quite a few people remove 2 springs, and everything works fine.
3. The only way i can see their explanation working is if the clutch was slipping due to the 24lbs of reduced pressure. You would have noticed this. If it wasn't slipping, then how exactly does the reduced pressure cause to friction plates to wear out faster?? What is the failure mechanism?
from speedy moto
QuoteI'm sorry to hear that your clutch has worn out prematurely.
Well, actually we have tested many OEM Ducati springs and they range +- 10% from -95lbs compressed, we feel this is due to different spring suppliers for Ducati. Ducati doesn't keep a close tolerance on their spring supply because that small difference has little effect on longevity.
Barnett springs are over built and claim it's for longevity, but that's just not necessarily true. Barnett springs just makes the already hard clutch pull even harder on your clutch hand. If I may suggest some areas that Barnett seems to have overlooked in their attempt to down sell you their newest GSXR clutch spring for your Ducati. Proper clutch stack height, correct friction material, proper break in, clutch adjustment and most importantly your riding style.
We have never had any problems with our springs causing premature wear on OEM or Barnett clutch packs and in fact we have seen and ridden many bikes with 20K+ miles on the original clutch using our spring kits. In our experience Barnett clutch packs do not usually last as long as OEM and the average OEM clutch life on most Ducati superbikes seems to be 10K-15K miles depending on riding conditions. If your clutch life was within this millage, I would say you probably got your money's worth.
Please let me know if we can help you further.
Sincerely,
Christian Hansen
Co-ordinator of Synchronicity
SpeedyMoto
ph 503.445.4368
tollfree 866.375.0727
fx 503.239.5426
www.speedymoto.com (//http://) (//http://)
Whoa, someone took a shit....
response form barnett... not sure if its right for me to post all this up for the world to see.
QuoteI disagree with Speedy Moto, but I'm not going to get into an argument over this with them or you. However, this statement is completely ridiculous and totally false:
Quote
If I may suggest some areas that Barnett seems to have overlooked in their attempt to down sell you their newest GSXR clutch spring for your Ducati.
What in the world does the GSXR or the GSXR spring have to do with anything? Where did they get this from? The spring we use for the dry clutch Ducati's is ONLY used for Ducati. That statement by them is way out of line and they should not be commenting on our products without proper knowledge and/or facts. They need to get their facts straight- the only spring we have that fits a Ducati and a GSXR is the spring for some wet clutch models such as the 848, ST3, etc. We are not referring to the wet clutch models here and the springs are completely different. I did not bad mouth or put down Speedy Moto in any way. That's not our way of doing business- apparently they do not handle things the same way. I only stated THE FACTS. I compared our spring, their spring, and the OEM spring. That's it. I related what I found and did not make any negative or derragotory remarks regarding their company or products.
Another example of their misguided response is to state that our spring is over built. If our spring is basically the same specs as the OEM spring, how is it over built? Yes, we do have spring sets that are extra heavy duty that can be used- yes, they are stiffer and will create a stiffer lever pull, but that ISN'T what we are talking about here. The spring we list for your bike and that I have been referring to all along, is our standard replacement spring.
That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Again, I'm not going to get into a three-way spat about this.
Chris Taylor
Barnett Tool & Eng.
My reponse
Quote
I'm not trying to get into an argument here. Here is something important to look at. If speedy moto springs do not supply the sufficient amount of force, then any type of friction plates should wear prematurely. That's not the case. It seems to only be the case with your clutch packs, specifically the red friction material. I can personally send you links to people who have stated they used your clutch for 10,000 miles nad loved it. and those who said they repalced it three times within 10,000 miles and hate it.
I was not clear to Speedymoto if i was using a dry clutch or a wetclutch, that was my fault. You seem to take it personally. It was a simple misunderstanding. Speedymoto has nothing to gain from that statement, they do not make wet clutch springs. I apologize for that misunderstanding.
However, it still remains, if ducati springs are +/- 10% difference from a 95 pound compression test, then 4lbs is not out of the ordinary. To fully understand the topic, you must test a significant number of springs to make sure your claim is valid.
Seriously this is just getting retarded.
I think you are all overlooking a very important point here.
He-man, whatever it is that you're doing, don't. It's a trap man, it's a trap. Don't agree to any meetings. If you do, you will be on the next episode of dateline.
Quote
We have never had any problems with our springs causing premature wear on OEM or Barnett clutch packs and in fact we have seen and ridden many bikes with 20K+ miles on the original clutch using our spring kits. In our experience Barnett clutch packs do not usually last as long as OEM and the average OEM clutch life on most Ducati superbikes seems to be 10K-15K miles depending on riding conditions. If your clutch life was within this millage, I would say you probably got your money's worth.
Please let me know if we can help you further.
Sincerely,
Christian Hansen[/size]
Co-ordinator of Synchronicity
SpeedyMoto
ph 503.445.4368
tollfree 866.375.0727
fx 503.239.5426
(http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/juice/chris%20hansen.jpg)
Seriously though? this is better than cable. [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
"how old do you think she is"
"'I knew that girl was 18. She told me her last boyfriend was Asian, and that crap doesn't start until college.'"
I've dealt with Chris from Barnett over the years for different bikes/applications, and he has always been very straightforward, never bullshitted me, and has always been helpful. Plus the fact that Barnett has been making clutch parts for as long as I can remember, I'd tend to believe him.
If I can get some time, I'll talk to one of our engineers at work about the difference in spring materials, Stainless vs. Alloy steel. If I recall correctly, and I might be wrong, but I seem to remember something about stainless sacking out earlier than spring steel, but that might have been years ago.
And taking 2 springs out of a clutch that is designed for 6? Maybe it's time to go to the gym, or buy something with less power and doesn't need a strong clutch.
< bookmarked >
never got a response from him. I dont think he wants to talk to me anymore.
Did he ever explain how the lower spring pressure would lead to premature failure of their plates?
Quote from: Triple J on July 17, 2009, 10:16:39 AM
Did he ever explain how the lower spring pressure would lead to premature failure of their plates?
Less pressure on the plates = more slippage = more heat = faster deterioration of friction material?
Quote from: pompetta on July 17, 2009, 11:30:11 AM
Less pressure on the plates = more slippage = more heat = faster deterioration of friction material?
he didnt explain it, but thats the reason why. ^^, longevity of a clutch is based on how often is slips. the less slipping, the longer lasting, however, the point at which it does slip is whats under debate here.
I dont really understand how he tested it though. he said he took a 1 inch spring and compressed it. it took the speedy moto spring 4 less pounds to compress to the same amount?
Speedy moto says that with a 95lb test, OEM springs vary up to +/- 10% that means its up to 9.5lbs of deviation thats acceptable for OEM plates. +/-4 lbs is half that. So while Barnett could be right, the significance of it is completely off to me. Your saying that speedymoto springs cause accelerated wear. Your basically syaing thier product sucks in a nice way, so i dont get why he got all pissy.
Quote from: pompetta on July 17, 2009, 11:30:11 AM
Less pressure on the plates = more slippage = more heat = faster deterioration of friction material?
That's what I'd think...but I'd expect He Man would have noticed his brand new clutch slipping if this was the cause. Also, how come my (and many others) stock clutch works just fine for the past 13K miles with the Speedymoto springs? ???
Quote from: Triple J on July 17, 2009, 11:57:03 AM
That's what I'd think...but I'd expect He Man would have noticed his brand new clutch slipping if this was the cause. Also, how come my (and many others) stock clutch works just fine for the past 13K miles with the Speedymoto springs? ???
clutch was defnitely not slipping, it caught so well, it took about 500 miles to break in. I kept stalling cause it caught so early.
and to answer your later question, is why i think barnett is full of stinky poo when they said that.
Quoteclutch was defnitely not slipping, it caught so well, it took about 500 miles to break in. I kept stalling cause it caught so early.
This plot is thickening :) According to my fairly simple understanding of how things wear out, two or more surfaces have to be rubbing or slipping together. So, how did the plates wear out if they were not rubbing or slipping? I think JJJ already asked this question or close to it.
Can you post pics of your failed plates?
I will probably next week. they are still in the bike.
i can still do 70mph! thats plenty fast enough to get to school and back...school ends tuesday and i got a set of OEM Duc Plates ready for install. I guess ill post up a video tutorial while im at it so no one has a good excuse for accidently summoning zombies.
Quote from: corndog67 on July 16, 2009, 07:33:58 PM
If I can get some time, I'll talk to one of our engineers at work about the difference in spring materials, Stainless vs. Alloy steel. If I recall correctly, and I might be wrong, but I seem to remember something about stainless sacking out earlier than spring steel, but that might have been years ago.
There
is a reason spring steel is used in springs :P
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 18, 2009, 09:05:31 AM
There is a reason spring steel is used in springs :P
why? ;)
I spoke to one of the design guys at work and he told me that it used to be that stainless wire would fatigue earlier than regular spring steel, not sure of what the details are about stainless alloys these days. So, that is still no answer. I'll keep checking.
[popcorn]
My s4rs clutch slipped with the stock springs when it was new and pretty much stock, I could hear it when twisting the throttle vigorously in first gear. I replaced the springs with SS - don't remember which brand - kept the same stock clutch plates - and the slipping, or at least the noise (slipping noise or whatever) disappeared. I remember the SS springs were a bit shorter but they were harder to compress. I recently installed a slipper clutch using the same original stock plates and they still look pretty good.
Quote from: hypurone on July 23, 2009, 06:07:40 AM
[popcorn]
they need to make one where the smiley dude is eating fried bacon instead
Quote from: He Man on July 23, 2009, 03:29:19 PM
they need to make one where the smiley dude is eating fried bacon instead
Yeah, but I'm trying to pace myself on the bacon.... [laugh]
I was a bit supprised to run across this thread as I had a related experiance the last time I changed my clutch pack.
Used a barnett pack and speedy moto springs. The clutch would engage very quickly, that is with the lever nearly touching the bar, but under heavy throttle would slip. The speedy moto springs "felt" stiffer but that may have been becaus I thought they were stiffer. I did not have a way to measure. The stock barnett springs were sitting there and looked a slight bit longer so I thought I'd just throw em on and see if it made a differance...it did! no slipage with the Barnetts?
Does anybody know what the life of the oem springs is? I'm still running the original clutch on my 95 with somewhere around 25,000 on it. Would I notice any kind of a difference by throwing some new springs on?
the springs wear depending on use. but new springs are almost alwya stronger than stock springs. i think speedymotos are atleast 25% stronger or around that much. so youll notice it eitherway.
Forgot about this zombie thread!
After reading this:
http://tpoparts.com/?P=articles/springfabrication.html (http://tpoparts.com/?P=articles/springfabrication.html)
I went with these:
http://www.tpoparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=61_65&products_id=57 (http://www.tpoparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=61_65&products_id=57)
So was there ever any resolution to this thread. Was there an actual problem with using SpeedMoto springs with Barnett clutch packs? This is what I just had installed on my bike today. It's weird this thread popped back up on the same day.
i dont know what other people said, but the barnett guy was pissed of i was talking to the speedymoto guy behind his back.
Eitherway, i have speedymoto springs, and i went with OEM ducati clutch pack and all was well. The barnett ones were glazzzed all around. I didnt do any burnouts on them. but they did see rain a lot. which i think is the number one factor in why they died so quickly.
I've used several Barnett red clutch packs I got from Barnett and from Chris (Ca-Cycleworks) and they work well. New springs in every pack and cheaper than OEM.
I'm thinkn I get 7000 mi. on a set maybe?
Takes 30 min. to change.
LA