Ducati Monster Forum

Many insurance companies are now closing the loophole that allowed claims for accidents that occur on closed courses during untimed "driver education" events.  This means that many of us are now left without insurance when we take our bikes to the track, and face the possibility of cancellation if we even ask our companies if they cover track days.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/automobiles/19INSURE.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/automobiles/19INSURE.html)

Just curious as to how people are dealing with this.  I'd love to get a cheap track bike that I don't care about, but also want to wring out my new rocket every now and then without worrying too much about it.

Track bike.

Can you cut and paste the article? Can't be viewed without having an account...

Life is one big risk, live it.

Over here full coverage is unreasonably expensive. Like a M695 costing 7000€  without taxes has a 700€  premium.  (that's if you've got car insurance with them as well) So no-one has full coverage, only the required Liability. It keeps you from acting stupid I guess.

Roll the dice and take yer chances, Sally ;)

Seriously, though, having a dedicated track bike you could wad up and walk away from (no pun intended) is the best solution. I don't follow that advice though.... I take my street bikes on the track once or twice each summer, but don't spend enough time track riding to justify having a dedicated track bike.

It's all a matter of risk tolerance.

I it were me writing insurance there's absolutely no way I'd write coverage for a track bike at any price.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

LA

I said track bike, but I do 5+ trackdays per year. If I only did 1-2 or so I'd just risk it with my street bike...which is exactly what I used to do.

I wouldn't and haven't claimed a track crash on insurance in the first place.  Which means that standard rules apply . . .

Don't take any bike to the track that you can't afford to/aren't willing to toss away.  Otherwise, go the track, ride at 60% and pray nothing bad happens.  Besides, you can buy a track bike for less than what crashing a monster at the track is gonna cost.

New York Times
October 19, 2008
Wheelspin
Car Insurance May Not Cover You at the Track
By ROY FURCHGOTT
IT’S no secret that insurance companies don’t like the people they cover to drive fast. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that the industry has been removing a policy loophole that insured drivers on racetracks.

That has left weekend warriors uninsured if they participate in track days or attend high-performance driving schools. Jerry Kunzman, executive director of the National Auto Sport Association, said that participation at its track events had jumped fivefold since 2003 and that many of those drivers had no idea they were not covered..

“Maybe 25 or 30 percent have done the research, the middle third just assumes they are covered, and the top third just don’t have a clue,” he said.

What’s happened is that many insurers have redefined the term “racing.” Policies have long had exclusions for racing, but it was defined as a “timed event.”

High-performance driver education neatly avoided that definition. Although cars may take laps at top speed, they aren’t timed.

At many schools, including those held by the Porsche Club of America and the BMW Car Club of America, students are required to attend classroom sessions. On the track, drivers get one-on-one tutoring from an instructor under controlled conditions. The cars are generally sent around the track in small groups with passing limited to straightaways — and only when the driver being passed signals that doing so is all right. So because these runs were not timed, many drivers were covered by their normal automobile policies.

That loophole did not escape the attention of insurers — some clubs practically taunted them in their newsletters. “There was a period of time when clubs were openly flouting this. ‘Take driver’s education and your insurance will cover you. Drive your car the way it was meant to be driven,’” said McKeel Hagerty, chief executive of the Hagerty Insurance Agency, an automotive specialty insurer.

So the industry began to add a new exclusion to its policies in the late 1990s, with most companies adding it within the last few years. Instead of trying to define racing, policies exclude damage at any location that could accommodate racing, timed or not. That eliminated coverage during high-performance driving schools and track days.

Chris Soignier of Austin, Tex., will not be taking his Porsche Cayman to the track, which he had done with his previous cars. When he read his renewal notice from Progressive Insurance last November, he found that the Cayman was not covered on the track.

“I don’t feel like I’m that much at risk, but the magnitude of the loss is too great for me to be comfortable,” he said.

Not all drivers got word of the change, or, like Mr. Soignier, read their new policy. Also, because insurance is regulated by the state, exemptions in Michigan, for example, may differ from those in California.

To make matters worse, asking insurers to clarify coverage could result in a nasty surprise. Mike Barr, a dentist from Palm Beach, Fla., called the insurer USAA to see if his policy covered his Subaru WRX STi on the track.

“Some months later I got a letter from USAA saying they were going to discontinue coverage,” he said.” “They dropped me because I asked about” performance driving schools. “They confirmed it verbally when I called to inquire further.” A USAA spokesman said Dr. Barr was canceled for “several reasons,” but would not elaborate.

Some drivers reduce their exposure by getting an inexpensive track car. As an insurance underwriter for Chubb insurance in Whitehouse Station, N.J., you’d think Eugene Lim would be averse to risk, and he is. But he is also a driving aficionado who is qualified as a high-performance driving instructor. After 40 track days in his Acura NSX, Mr. Lim discovered he was uninsured on the track. So he bought what is essentially a disposable car. “When I got really serious, I bought a turbo Miata. Six thousand dollars would still hurt, but it’s not my NSX,” which was worth about $45,000.

Such a growing market would seem to be an opportunity — and it is. Specialty insurers have tried offering high-performance-school insurance.

“It was a difficult program,” said Laura Bergan, vice president for marketing at American Collectors Insurance. “Difficult as in, we were paying a lot of claims.” American phased out its performance-school coverage last year.

American, like other insurers who have tried the insurance, ran into a series of hurdles. To attract a pool of clients and spread risk, the policies were priced low — an average of $500 to $750 a year, Ms. Bergan said. The number of claims wasn’t a problem, but the cost of the claims was. “Most of the claims were total losses,” she said.

Other companies tried higher pricing, but found few takers.

Cost is not the only barrier. Many drivers don’t think they’ll crash, and unlike regular car insurance, track insurance is not mandated by states. Drivers often confuse track insurance provided by clubs, which in most cases covers only liability and injury, with collision insurance.

The growing market still attracts new insurers. Laura Hauenstein, president of the WSIB Insurance Agency of Jackson, Mich., which specializes in motorsports coverage, was initially against offering performance-school insurance. She changed her mind three years ago when WSIB found a way to streamline the underwriting process.

“I would say we had 100, the first year or two, but this year we put ads in Porsche Panorama,” she said. “My numbers might be off — it could be 500.”

The WSIB premium is 3 percent of the car’s value. The deductible is $2,500, or 4 percent of the car’s value, whichever is greater. So an experienced driver on an approved track with a $100,000 Porsche 911 Carrera S would pay $3,000 to cover 10 events in one year, with a deductible of $4,000. Other companies, like K & K Insurance Group of Fort Wayne, Ind., and Motorsports Insurance Services of Los Angeles, have begun to offer the insurance, but use a more complex formula to price it.

Gene Cottingham, former chief financial officer of Champ Car World Series, which held open-wheel races, knows what track accidents can cost. So he insured his modified 2006 Mustang GT pace car for $40,000. The $1,200 premium seemed high at first, but “when you spread that cost over five to six weekends, it’s really not that much money,” he said.

“The purpose of insurance for me,” he added, “is peace of mind.”

but if your riding at 60% what the hell is going to cause a crash? its not that big of a risk to me unless your passing people, or riding beyond your comfort zone...

but +1 on a track bike. If i crash the monster once, the damage is enough to buy a hooked up bike of the wear forums for $3 grand.

The problem I see is it is pretty much impossible to ride at 60% of your ability at a track day. It'd be boring as hell. Before long you're riding at 90%...and that extra 10% can be lost pretty fast.  ;D

What about the other yahoos on the track with you?  One rider's mistake can take out several others.

As others have said, if you can't just walk away from it, you probably shouldn't have it on the track.

Seriously?!? Here are a few things I've seen that have little or nothing to do with rider pace:

Some guy oils down the track
Some guy crashes and oils down the track
Some guy oils down the track, grease sweep is put down, but they miss some parts
Some guy is running antifreeze (whether allowed or not) and coats the track
On a drying track, there is a hidden patch of water.  Hit it when leaned over and you're done.
You make a mechanical mistake -- tweak brake line and lose your brakes, have two gaskets on your oil filter and dump an entire engine's worth of oil, screw up your brakes and have them lock up against the rotors, or a million other things.
Some one passes you at the last minute (cuz you're going 60%), misjudge your speed because of the delta and cut off your nose
Some one misjudges your speed because of the delta, try to take you on the inside, misjudge and T-bone you.
Some one tries to take it inside in a turn and lose the front and takes you out
Some one tries to take you on the inside in a turn, has an issue, stands it up and forces you off track where you crash
Some one else runs off the track and leaves mud at the apex on a blind turn.  You hit and go boom.

Besides, like TripleJ said, it's not really possible to ride at 60% at a track day unless you're at a school where they're working on specific skills and have you going 60% for some of the day.

alot of those things can happen in everyday riding. Except for the ones that involve others, but i did say "unless your passing people".  (if we are allowing people to take others in corners, which to my knowledge isnt allowed unless your in an advance track day class, which in that case, you probably have enough money to pay for track days to own a track bike, so you have no excuse anyway). but im not one to speak from experience as i havent been to the track. It would seem very likely that its impossible to ride at 60% when ur free to go as fast as u want!

are you allowed to sue someone if they do someting stupid to cause you to crash?

Sure, I guess.  But you ever seen any of that on that street and/or see it regularly?

Generally, you sign a waiver of liability when you get on the track that says that you waive you right to sue anyone and everyone even if they sleep with your mom, rape your cat and eat your father's brain.  That said, nothing stops you from filing a lawsuit if something happens.  Whether it goes anywhere is a whole 'nuther story. 

that kind of sucks. if someone makes a dumb move to try and pass you, id expect something in compensation unless it was a race.


oil down the track... if the street was the track, theres oil everywhere (trucks and leaky cars leave anti freeze and oil EVERYWHERE they stand still. which in nyc is basically, everywhere, even the highway. the water thing is a daily occurance, i think if your on the track, you should be mindful enough to take a lap around to observe the track condition to judge your aggressiveness. and mechanical mistakes can happen to anyone...

It's absolutely not the same thing and you know it. Stop being petulant.

Out of goodwill, people will often try to do the right thing and offer to pay if they take you out.  But there's no obligation to do so.  It's one of the things you should accept before heading out to the track, i.e. that you could be doing everything right and still get pedrobrizio'ed.  In fact, I'll probably be the one responsible (ask DanTheMan).   ;D

So you're telling me oil on the track is not the same as oil on the street?
People dont leak antifreeze on the street?
People dont leak oil on the street?
its impossibel to make a mechanical mistake on a street bike?

I can get make the beast with two backsed over on the track by those specific things spidey mentioned on the street or track. and i only have liabilty on the street. so what difference does it matter to me if i crash on the street or track because 10,000 cars are dripping oil on the highway everyday, or a bike dumps its oil on the track. eitherway im still not covered.

Yea i may be comming off as a smart as I always do. but is there something wrong with the way im seeing things here?


Whats your nick name again? ;D

Ill have to keep that in mind. i went down over an oil patch on the street nad ended up underneath some ladys car (my reason why its all the same to me), i told her i would pay for her damages so as long as she doenst report it to the cops, and gave her all my info. she never called.  :-X maybe she was afraid id sue her cause i was limping pretty bad.

Not to mention the "ride at your own risk" waiver you sign when you enter the track. No way you will ever get money out of anyone for a crash on the track.  Now if someone tips your bike over in the pits thats a different story.

We have a couple of different classes here where I do the track days.
The green and blue classes are fully covered because there is an instructor riding infront , setting the pace.
The red and black and ride-on-you-own-risk and those people have dedicated track bikes of sure.
I would only do it if I really could afford a totalled bike, and I can not :)
I started last year in the slowest group and my tarck time was 2.00
Last sunday I did 1.42 and was very proud.
Then we took the time of the black class and they are doing 1.05
Gawd, i'm sooo slooow....but my insurance like it that way

Mechanical failures.

A lot of people say things like life is risky so deal with it. It sounds macho and we all envy their bravado.  [roll] But if those people are paying for full coverage and wearing leathers even for a short ride around town, it's a load of BS. We all know riding slowly is supposed to be safe. But if you found out your policy lapsed for a couple of days, would you still ride (or drive) down the street for an errand? If you would, then you pass the "I'd operate a vehicle without insurance" standard. You are perfect for a track day. If you wouldn't, then why operate one on the track without insurance?

IMO, insuring your vehicle proves that tracking isn't for you (on this vehicle)

Pretty aggressive position ducleaner. I understand what you are saying, but not everything you describe above has the same risk for each person. In addition, riding to get a loaf of bread and working on improving your lap times have different rewards which are evaluated against the risk.

If you are a person who finances their bike, well, that is a different matter altogether as the bank sets your real risk tolerance. Just can't say that I agree with your position.

If my policy lapsed, I would not ride on the street.  I would ride on the track without insurance.  These are two completely different situations, and I think your point is pointless.

What he said.

I operate my vehicle without insurance in Florida. In NYC, i wouldnt even think twice about doing it, let alone once.

how much is it to ensure a track bike anyway? I remember the progressive lady asking me if this is for on or off road use.

I have been contacting all of the companies that offer high performance driver education insurance for cagers on the track, and none of them provide coverage for motorcycles.  They insure the clubs that organize and the tracks that provide the asphalt, but they won't provide coverage for the individual motorcyclist.

is track duty considered off-road because progressive will cover an off road motorcycle.

I can't afford to replace my monster, and if I could I'd be buying a GT-1000. Maybe next year I'll get a salvage title ninja and make a track bike out of it, but no monster on the track for me right now.

Lesson here, if your going to hit someone at the track, make sure you know them, it will lessen your chances of being sued. [roll]

Not sure bout you guys, but my insurance will cover me at the track, as long as it is not a timed event. But i would still buy a track bike dedicated for the track, Better, faster, cheaper.

Off road coverage, i would tell them straight up what you intend to do instead of trying to argue the definition of "off-road" when there's thousands of dollars pending.

And the "unless your passing people" haha you think everyone else isn't going to pass you riding at 60%?

Shit happens, know the risk and consequences going into it, decide whats acceptable for you, and be prepared for the worst.

I agree 100%. 

I just took my car (actually, my wife's station wagon  [laugh]) to a car club track event at Road America in WI.  I assumed (without asking my agent  ;)) that any damage I incur on the track would not be covered by my insurance.  My experience at these events is that folks who drive their 'street' cars on track are not likely to wad them up on the walls.  Sure, it could happen to the best driver at some point, but it's very rare at the club events.  No sense fretting about it - if you're worried about insurance coverage, don't bring your car to a track event.

That said, I feel like bikes at track days are far more likely to incur damage.  You don't have to drill a bike into the wall to do catastrophic damage to it and total it for insurance purposes.  A simple low-side off a corner that flips the bike into the grass/pea gravel will do the job, not to mention any of the instances that Spidey described in his post.  Putting your street car into the pea gravel will likely just put a bunch of rocks and dirt up into your wheel wells.  You might have to pay a few $$ if you need a tow, but otherwise no harm, no foul.

Just curious as to how people are dealing with this.  I'd love to get a cheap track bike that I don't care about, but also want to wring out my new rocket every now and then without worrying too much about it.

Maybe I'm just too old, but I can't believe anybody thinks you, the rhetorical you, thinks they should be "covered" by insurance when they take their bike out onto a racetrack (wring out my new rocket)?

The dope you're on must be better than the stuff I'm gettin.

LA ???

 [laugh] [laugh] [thumbsup]

I haven't read the whole thread but how about the damage you may do to your body ?

I don't know if any kind of insurance will pay for your broken body if you are engaged in track racing or whatever you want to call it.

Dolph     :)

Your standard health insurance should cover you regardless. There are plenty of dangerous activities that people engage in outside of moto track days...and they're always covered.

If they'll cover you riding a motorcycle on the street, then they will during a track day. Just like if you go skydiving, wakeboarding, dirt biking, snowboarding, mountain biking, rock climbing, etc.

Yea, I guess it makes sense . If you were drag racing on the street and crashed , if the insurance Co. could prove it I'm not so sure they would cover you since you are engaged in an illegal activity.

Dolph     :)

I crashed a bike on the track once.

Well, twice, but it was two different bikes.  The one in question I was able to keep riding, rode the rest of the year and then turned it in to my insurance the following January.  The crash happened in may.

I intended to answer all the questions truthfully but wouldn't add in any more detail than what they were asking.

I rode the line on that one.  I was able to get the bike covered and I didn't lie to do it.

That being said- I own a track bike now that I can afford to throw down the track.  My street bike (that I will be paying on for a couple more years) will stay on the street.

Did your insurance policy cover damages incurred at a track?
Did you tell them you damaged the bike while riding on the track?

If you answered no to both of those then you were lying. And not just to your insurance co.

why don't people read their insurance policies and write in extras you want with your agent?   My insurance (same company for everything) covers bike at race track if it is not a competitve event, and my sailboat no matter (including competitive events).    It truly isn't that difficult to have covered what you want covered, and to write specifics that can be approved by your company.   I had to wait to get approval for how I wrote things, but now we're all on the same page if I decide to make a claim for my bike from a track day.

So yes, I would assume my bike was covered at a track day because it is specifically written into my policy to do so.

If I get a cheap trackbike I likely won't bother to have it covered for anything but theft...but it's nice to have the streetbike covered.

to be honest, not knowing exactly what you are paying for sounds very similar to me to the guys who complain after dropping off their Duc at a dealership for service and have no idea how much they will owe when it's done because they didn't sign anything with specifics with them.

C, what do you think about insurance covering your bike and bodily injury while engaged in drag racing on the street if the insurance Co. has reason to believe and can prove by way of a ticket from the police that you were cited for racing ? Hypothetical

Dolph       :)

Statler,

Of course it's crass to ask, but how the **** much does that cost - to be covered on the street and on the track?  When I purchased the only non-European bike I ever purchased, at the age of 32, regular comprehensive coverage for the bike (84-VFR1000F $4200) was more for four years than the cost of the bike. Consequently, I bought only liability coverage and took the chance. Good choice as it turns out.

If I were writing the coverage, the price would be astronomically high, especially if you were under some threshold age - actuaries and so on.

If I couldn't take the loss out of pocket, I'd probably not put er on the track. 

An aside: I swore to buy the first bike that would exceed 150 mph in stock trim no matter who made it - Honda won.  Rode that thing to work west of Phoenix at just over 150 daily for a while.

LA

You can get a quote from Progressive online. There is a track/racing use option.

Ill answer no to only one of them.  I actually looked up the definition of "lie" and I used it properly.

Yes to question one.

No to question two.  They didn't ask if i was on a track.

"Where were you when the accident happened?"

Me - "Canada"

"What happened?"

Me- I lost the front in some gravel.

"Ok, we'll send out a claim van to take some pictures.  Glad you're ok."

If they would have specifically asked if i was on a track or racing I would have told them yes.

They didn't ask.

I didn't make a point of telling.

We are unable to provide you with a rate due to the current use of your vehicle.

Just for grins I went to the Progressive Motorcycle insurance page and that's the answer I got for my motorcycle. 

I had to list my VIN number and model S4RS and checked the track option. 

Maybe they just think it's not a good track bike. ;D

LA

I just take my chances at the track.  I'm not even sure if I'd bother to file a claim for a street incident either.  With the way they jack rates up, it's not much different than taking out a loan to pay for damages.

I want to know if you are injured speeding or drag racing and cited on the street if your insurance will pay for your injuries ?

Dolph       :)