Spot the issues in this story. How many can you find.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09210/986936-298.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09210/986936-298.stm)
Student loans puts college graduate into deep financial hole
Student loans were a fact of life for Marjorie Dillon and she was OK with that -- even though she didn't keep close track of how much she borrowed or completely understand the agreements. She and many of her former classmates at Robert Morris University in Moon relied on loans to pay tuition and expenses.
Ms. Dillon, 26, of Coraopolis, was the first in her family to attend a four-year university and loans were the only way to finance the business administration degree that would be her passport to a better life.
ABOUT STUDENT LOANS:
Stafford loans: These are government guaranteed, fixed-rate student loans. Repayment begins 180 days after graduating or leaving school. Loan amounts are limited to $3,500 for first-year students. Stafford loans can be either subsidized or unsubsidized. Interest on subsidized student loans is paid by the federal government while a student is in school and for up to six months after graduating or leaving school. Unsubsidized Stafford loans are available to any student regardless of need. The government does not pay interest on those loans, however.
Perkins loans: These are need-based student loans offered through the U.S. Department of Education. The currently carry a fixed interest rate of 5 percent for the duration of the 10-year repayment period. Perkins loans have a 9-month grace period, so that borrowers begin repayment in the 10th month after graduating, falling below half-time status or leaving college.
Parents Plus loans: Parents can borrow money at a fixed rate, up to 100 percent of the education costs, minus any aid the child receives. No collateral is necessary for the loans and repayment begins 60 days after the loan is dispersed.
Private student loans: Banks, lending companies and other private entities issue these loans in the student's name or in the name of a parent or sponsor, usually with a co-signer. These loans usually have variable interest rates and higher borrowing limits.
But six months after graduating with her bachelor's degree, Ms. Dillon is making $7.25 an hour plus tips serving beer at a bowling alley, working 25 to 30 hours a week. She's nearly $120,000 in debt, behind on her bills and, despite her best efforts, cannot find a better job. Her 80-year-old grandmother co-signed for the loans and could lose her house in North Fayette if the debts are not repaid.
"Honestly, I wouldn't have gone to school if I knew I would be in debt the rest of my life," Ms. Dillon said. "I won't be able to ever own anything. If you look at my credit report, it's (loaded) with Sallie Mae loans."
The financial crisis she is facing provides a snapshot of the worrisome outlook confronting many college graduates who find themselves juggling a mountain of student loans and other forms of debt in the early stages of their working lives.
Her case might be considered a worst-case scenario. The average cumulative debt for four-year college graduates has reached $22,656, according to Finaid.org, a leading Web site for financial aid information.
Some relief is on the way thanks to a new federal student loan repayment plan that will set monthly payments based on how much borrowers make and the size of their families instead of how much they owe. In some cases, graduates will make no monthly payments if their income falls below a certain level. And after 25 years of payments, any remaining balance is cancelled.
But the reduced income repayment program is only available for federal student loans under Stafford, Grad Plus and federal consolidated loan programs.
Ten of Ms. Dillon's loans totalling $108,639 were private signature student loans through the SLM Corporation -- commonly known as Sallie Mae -- which cannot be consolidated, forgiven, deferred or erased in bankruptcy. Two of her loans, totalling $9,000, are federal government loans.
Even if the variable interest rates stay frozen or never go up during the 25-year life of the loans -- which is unlikely -- her monthly payments on the $117,600 borrowed will climb to more than $1,100 and she will end up repaying at least $270,000.
For hardship reasons, Ms. Dillon has been allowed to pay only the interest for the first two years, which amounts to $670 a month.
Beyond illustrating the perils of student loan debt, Ms. Dillon's story also shows the consequences of a lack of financial planning, missing federal aid application deadlines and not meeting academic requirements for federal programs.
Officials at Robert Morris were willing to discuss Ms. Dillon's case only after she signed a consent form allowing the institution to release her education records to the Post-Gazette.
"In this case, the student frequently came into the financial aid office after school had begun and in some cases on the date bills were due and asked what her financing options were," said Mike Frantz, vice president of enrollment at Robert Morris.
University records show she failed to complete the Free Application For Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) on time for the first three years she attended Robert Morris, starting in fall 2005. That meant she didn't qualify for federal student aid and state grant money through the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency.
After the spring 2006 semester, Mr. Frantz said Ms. Dillon lost her eligibility for government aid because her grade point average fell below a 2.0. To make matters worse, she failed to pass at least two thirds of the academic credits she signed up for, another requirement for eligibility.
Ms. Dillon also borrowed more than the amount needed to take classes.
Mr. Frantz said she borrowed $43,290 in excess of the cost of tuition and fees to attend Robert Morris. Full-time undergraduate tuition for the 2009-10 academic year costs $19,950. That does not include room and board for resident students. Ms. Dillon was not a resident student.
"I can assure you she was told about the ramifications of borrowing," Mr. Frantz said. "She satisfied the entrance loan counseling requirements which the federal government requires to make sure they understand the implications."
Ms. Dillon's college debt has ignited an emotional family drama that which includes her grandmother and her disabled father who raised three children as a single dad. He lives with his mother and receives $598 a month in government benefits.
Ms. Dillon managed to make the first payment on her loans due July 3 but that meant other important bills went unpaid. Her electricity was cut off by Duquesne Light Co. for $612 in past due bills in late July. Her refrigerator and kitchen cabinets are essentially bare.
"I can't remember the last time I went grocery shopping," Ms. Dillon said. "No one should be in this position. No one should be this stressed out every single day."
Although she does not qualify for food stamps, she does receive government help for her 9-month-old daughter through the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) nutrition program. Every month, she gets 10 cans of baby formula worth $13 each and 15 four-ounce bottles of juice. A younger sister has moved in with Ms. Dillon to help care for her daughter since she has no way of paying for child care.
Financial adviser Paul Brahim of BPU Investment Management, Downtown, recently evaluated Ms. Dillon's income and expenses at the request of the Post-Gazette and concluded that she must take dramatic steps to get her budget under control.
He suggested she move in with her grandmother if possible to save $600 a month on rent and eliminate the $120-a-month cable and Internet bill.
She could erase the $329-a-month car payment by selling the vehicle and using public transportation. She also should try to renegotiate the interest rate on her credit cards to reduce those $300-a-month payments. Her $150-a-month cell phone plan could also be reduced, he said.
Ms. Dillon said she has learned a lot about how credit and interest works while looking for solutions to her dilemma.
She counts pennies to make her payments and crunches numbers all the time. She figures if she could get a job making $30,000 a year, that would give her about $900 every two weeks that would all go into the bottomless hole that is her student debt.
"I wanted to be better off than my dad," she said. "He struggled with us and I knew I needed to get an education to get a nice job, nice house and drive a nice car. Now one whole paycheck goes to Sallie Mae for the next 25 years of my life.
"You dangle a steak in front of a dog and he will eat it. Every student takes out extra for living expenses. We don't work. But I'll do what I have to to make it. Yes, it will be hard. I've only made one payment and it's already hard."
wow
Are you kidding me!?!?!?!?! [bang]
Wow....she needs to go get a MRS.
Dumbass. Go freaking cry in a river or something. I paid for a full associates and a full BSME on my own by paying for what I could afford first washing pots and pans for the associate at a junior college then as a drafter/designer for the BSME and graduated without one single cent of debt. She made her bed and now gets to sleep in it.
Edit. Blame government all you want, but that person right there is the true reason why the economy is in the crapper. Idiots living high off the hog on debt until they can't support it anymore then it all comes crashing down on them in one big pile of pig shit.
Double U. Tee. Eff.
"Ten of Ms. Dillon's loans totalling $108,639 were private signature student loans through the SLM Corporation -- commonly known as Sallie Mae -- which cannot be consolidated, forgiven, deferred or erased in bankruptcy."
Clearly, stupidity large played a part in creating this financial sink hole. But having been through the process, I wonder why institutions are willing to fork over these sums of money for a bachelor's degree - it's a shitty ROI in my opinion. A bachelor's degree alone, unless it comes with some kind of professional pedigree like an engineering license, is not going to qualify anyone for a job that allows them to pay off the loan quickly.
I studied fine arts, so I know make the beast with two backs all about an undergraduate business degree. But I doubt it is much more than prep school for an MBA program. Expecting any 18-year-old who has probably never held down a full-time job, paid their own bills, or even done their own laundry to fully understand the financial ramifications of taking on a shit-ton of debt is probably delusional at best, exploitative at worst. Most high school graduates bound for college are guided by the axiom "college = good, factory job = bad" and will take every step in pursuit of that, stupid or otherwise.
I am leaving out my personal responsibility rant here, but I think the points are implied. So, getting back to my original point, if Sallie Mae is going to take the gamble that 100k worth of debt will result in a 150% return, it should be just that - a gamble. And not one insured by a pound of flesh.
People are so make the beast with two backsing dumb when it comes to student loans.
I went to Butler University in Indianapolis, a private school that runs now around 38k a year.
So if you took loans, you are looking at 160k when you graduate.
I heard so many classmates/friends complain about how much in debt they were going to be when they graduated.
"Hey dumbass, why didn't you go to IU or Purdue and graduate with about 70k a year in debt instead of 160k?"
Answer: I didn't WANT to go to a state school; I wanted to go to a private school
people don't understand that you can't have everything you WANT.
and about 75% of these morons got degrees in english, PR/Advertising, or education.
Plenty of other schools in the state where you could have gotten an equally good education.
She can't buy groceries, but she's paying $120/month for cable, and $150/month for her cell service?
This girl's a freakin' genius!
I bet she runs for congress
Quote from: bobspapa on July 30, 2009, 06:17:42 AM
I bet she runs for congress
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Quote from: Bun-bun on July 30, 2009, 05:48:27 AM
She can't buy groceries, but she's paying $120/month for cable, and $150/month for her cell service?
This girl's a freakin' genius!
I hear shit like this at my work all the time from hourly processing employees.
They pregnant dog about never having money but yet.......
they have the latest mobile phones available
they go out to lunch EVERYDAY
etc.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 05:12:41 AM
People are so make the beast with two backsing dumb when it comes to student loans.
I went to Butler University in Indianapolis, a private school that runs now around 38k a year.
...
Shoulda joined me up the road at ol' Ball State University. Tuition was $8.50 an hour, and you could smoke in classrooms...
But seriously folks...
Girlie's got a business degree, and the best she can do is swing a job slinging beer for $7.50 per hour? I'd have suggested studying harder, maybe sucking it up and doing that unpaid internship with a company to gain experience and grow her network, then taking the low-man position upon graduation to get in the door and apply what she learned.
But who am I to talk - I just worked three jobs while in college, completed an unpaid internship while I was there, took the low-man position when I graduated, and then worked two jobs to make ends meet and support the lifesyle I desired... and my loans are current and managable, but WTF do I know?
I picked my college by the tuition price. I went to the cheapest in-state school that surprisingly had the best education program in the state. I have minor student loan debt having been the sole wage-earner in my family, working full time and going to school full time. It's tough to pay the bills for a family of 3 making less than $7 hr. It took me 3.5 yrs to finish and in that time, my tuition doubled. It can be done, but it isn't easy.
That said, the reason institutions are willing to fork over any price for a BA/BS is the loans are guaranteed by the federal government and are impossible to shed. Unlike almost any other debt, you can't declare bankruptcy and get rid of the debt/restructure the debt. The institutions can use the federal government as a free collection service to garnish wages, confiscate income tax returns, etc. On top of that, there was a loophole where student loan providers could roll over loans and collect from the federal pot for a new loan, making payment perpetual. It was a really sweet deal.
Two words
Junior college. [roll]
This is the very reason economics and financial planning need more than one semester in high school. It should be required every year, just like English or Math (yes I realize now you only need two years of each.) Its obvious that kids dont get these lessons at home, or are just repeating the mistakes of their parents.
na..... 10 years of federal government service.... an it'll all be good.
I hear the tracking chip install is painless
Ohio no longer requires econ. for graduation. There's a proposal pending to require a financial planning semester, but that's been hung up for 3 years because it's unclear who would teach it. Integrated Social Studies licenses do not have any financial planning training and not many schools have a business department.
If I needed loans for college.............
why not join the military and have them pay for it?
I felt bad for the grandmother...until I read that she co-signed on these loans. WTF...apparently no one in the family has any financial sense.
Why on earth would you risk your situation by co-sigining on loans needed because the person didn't meet the deadlines for filling out paperwork for a better loan option and/or couldn't maintain a 2.0 GPA? 2.0...wtf. Then she took out more than she needed for classes? Lame.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 06:57:34 AM
If I needed loans for college.............
why not join the military and have them pay for it?
...or pick a school that isn't outrageously expensive, get the paperwork in on time for govt. loans with better terms, keep your GPA up, and choose a degree that can actually get you a good job. That's what I did. [thumbsup]
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt
Quote from: Triple J on July 30, 2009, 07:00:01 AM
Then she took out more than she needed for classes? Lame.
my former bestfriend (turned into a douche, you'll see) pulled this shit when he went to Med School.
He maxed out his student loans so he could:
1. One year bought a car
2. went to Fiji another year
3. paid for his wedding
4. vacations constantly
He is now at the University of Michigan doing a cardio-thoracic surgery residency.....I think 5yrs.
Starting out you make around 45k and then by year 5 you are probably around 80-90k (might vary per program, though).
then once you finish..........that's when you start making $$$ and also when the first loan payment is made.
However, this dumb make the beast with two backs won't look at it that way. He'll buy a huge house, fancy car, clothes, etc etc.
I won't get into why I don't like him, but it stems from how my Dad mentored him about becoming a doctor and now.......won't even speak to my Father because he is "above him" because he is a surgeon and my Dad isn't. make the beast with two backsing arrogant cocksucker.
Finding Osama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1s5pKTipZY#lq-hq-vhq)
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 07:05:46 AM
He maxed out his student loans so he could:
I never understood that mentaility. I had loans to cover school...then worked about 30 hours per week during school, and full time during breaks so I could afford to live (with roommates). The most extravagant trip I took in college was a road trip to Lake Havasu [evil] during Spring Break my Junior year. Other than that...work.
Quote from: Pedro-bot on July 30, 2009, 07:04:12 AM
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt
Real me do. DMF'rs cut and paste quotes
- me
[laugh]
Quote from: bobspapa on July 30, 2009, 06:47:20 AM
na..... 10 years of federal government service.... an it'll all be good.
I hear the tracking chip install is painless
It just pinches a little ;)
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 29, 2009, 11:17:52 PM
grade point average fell below a 2.0. To make matters worse, she failed to pass at least two thirds of the academic credits she signed up for, another requirement for eligibility.
Uh.. how did she graduate?
Ms. Dillon also borrowed more than the amount needed to take classes.
Mr. Frantz said she borrowed $43,290 in excess of the cost of tuition and fees to attend Robert Morris.
Every student takes out extra for living expenses. We don't work.
Every student? Only the students with well off and generous parents didn't work at the school I went to.
Quote from: Pedro-bot on July 30, 2009, 07:04:12 AM
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt
The idea is that stupid people often create events worth discussing.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 06:57:34 AM
If I needed loans for college.............
why not join the military and have them pay for it?
http://collegesavings.about.com/od/otherfundingsources/a/gibill.htm (http://collegesavings.about.com/od/otherfundingsources/a/gibill.htm)
The way the GI Bill works is kind of complicated. The maximum lifetime benefit is just shy of $40k, but it's paid in monthly installments. You'd probably still need a student loan to pay tuition up front if you're the type who NEEDS the GI Bill.
There's something morally amiss about sending poor kids to serve for the sake of attaining an education. To an extent, it strips the notions of nobility and shared sacrifice from the service.
[tangent] The value of the GI Bill needs to be looked into again. After WWII, MANY soldiers were able to pay their way through school and buy a home between the GI Bill and the Veteran's mortgage programs. Tuition for a semester at a state school was $200-300 per semester after the war. It hasn't kept up w/ the rate of inflation of tuition. [/tangent]
first off... i live in pittsburgh...
anyone paying that much money to go to robert morris university needs to be eliminated from society.
what a waste of money.
try a tech school, learn a skill or trade... people don't do that kind of work anymore... but someone has to. i can't count the people i know that have "business degrees" and are working retail, or food service, or whatever. the business world is a saturated market.
i have nothing BUT sallie mae loans. people need to consider that if nobody in their family has been to college, and nobody is making enough money to help you handle a considerable amount (half) of the load burden, then you need to choose a school that you can afford... that's like me being able to afford a honda fit, but going out and buying a Z06 corvette.
failblog.org
The financial education aspect of this is simple. Before the loan is granted the applicant sits down and calculates the loan payment schedule based on their income after college. IF they make 30k a year, they will be paying X amount for the next 25 years. Also, work out the rest of your budget - this is how much you will pay for rent, lights, phone, food. For each increase, they recalculate. I don't think the reality of the situation is too hard to express - the loan providers and the colleges being the monogamous partners in this clustermake the beast with two backs lack the will to do this.
Part of the problem is that the universities (and irresponsible children) rely on hapless grandmothers and parents to be the safety net. A good example of this is the credit card industry - kids with no income and no prospects of income are given credit cards and sent on their broke way. Don't do anything stupid. Parents who care more about the financial future of their children are likely to step in when they inevitably do, if they have the means.
Here's my solution. In the above scenario, have the applicant do the math, then make out a list of things, that if they graduated today, they could not afford given their projected income and expected debt. iPhone, car, ironic t-shirts, beer, backpacking through Europe etc.
Part of the problem is projected job opportunities. When I started my undergrad degree in 98, there was a projected teacher shortage in my state. The retirement system changed from 30 years to 35, and that shortage disappeared. Lots of people who borrowed responsibly and got a "sure thing" degree in education couldn't find a decent paying job for several years. In short, the risks are minimized.
I graduated first in my class and had a hard time finding a job. I only got 2 interviews after sending out well over 70 resumes. Luckily, I nailed one of them.
I am close in age and ran into the same problem as redxblack (I graduated in 03).
I was not at the top of my class, but I had well over a 3.0 and graduated without a job.
Took me about 9 months and eventually got a job and 5.5yrs later I am still working and progressing in my career quite a bit. However, I had an inside connection to the job, which seems to be the most common way people get in anymore.
Although this young lady has proved herself to be a dumbass in more ways than one, the truth of the matter is neither stupidity or education is relevant here. Borrowing money for education is a good investment. Using this money to buy other luxury items is not.
One does not need a course in economics, financial planning or a high IQ to understand money borrowed needs to be paid back with interest. Nor does one need those qualifications to figure out an Ipod or Iphone should have a lower priority than food and shelter. The problem is simply a lack of willpower and self discipline.
Quote from: howie on July 30, 2009, 09:49:08 AM
The problem is simply a lack of willpower and self discipline.
That is the huge issue with this generation.
And I find the reason to be very easy:
lack of parenting
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 09:58:59 AM
That is the huge issue with this generation.
And I find the reason to be very easy:
lack of parenting
^ bingo.
average debt for 4-year graduates is $22000
she borrowed $120,000
it's sallie maes fault for loaning her money and ruining her life [roll]
i'm just glad she cant flip a quick bankruptcy and make the rest of us pay for it [thumbsup]
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 09:58:59 AM
That is the huge issue with this generation.
And I find the reason to be very easy:
lack of parenting
Trust me, it ain't just this generation.
Quote from: JEFF_H on July 30, 2009, 10:06:22 AM
it's sallie maes fault for loaning her money and ruining her life [roll]
Um...no.
She's made her bed and now she needs to sleep in it. It's obvious that she is not the most responsible person you will meet. Didn't apply for Federal aid when it was available. She partied too much with too much of that "free money" in her pocket. She was failing in the classroom. GPA below 2.0 and flunked out of 2/3 of her classes (4 out of 6 probably). Can't find a decent job after school and she gets pregnant...
So am I supposed to feel bad for her? Did I miss something here?
Quote from: Triple J on July 30, 2009, 11:13:55 AM
I think that's what [roll] means.
I wasn't sure [roll]
Very few people think about the ROI of a college education. They get sold on this college or that based on the school's sales literature, or based on some family devotion to a sports team.
Quote from: JEFF_H on July 30, 2009, 10:06:22 AM
average debt for 4-year graduates is $22000
she borrowed $120,000
She must have taken out money to cover all of her living expenses which is why she is used to having 150 phone bill. I feel worse for her kid. Wonder if she'll have even paid off her loans by the time her kids ready for school.
Quote from: JEFF_H on July 30, 2009, 10:06:22 AM
average debt for 4-year graduates is $22000
How is that even possible?
I'll pick a random state school here in ohio........doesn't matter which one.
15,000$ per year
That is 60k dollar for four years
Where did they get the other 38k?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 01:46:11 PM
How is that even possible?
I'll pick a random state school here in ohio........doesn't matter which one.
15,000$ per year
That is 60k dollar for four years
Is that for residents?
University of Nevada (where I went) currently charges undergraduate residents $148/credit. Say 16 credits/semester and 2 semesters/year = $4,736/year.
There are a few other fees, like health and such...so say $5,000/year + books.
UC Berkeley (where I went for grad. school) is similar for resident undergraduate tuition.
edit: Berkeley is $4,874.25/semester for undergrad. residents...still quite a bit less than $15K/year though.Out-of-State is
significantly higher.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 01:46:11 PM
How is that even possible?
I'll pick a random state school here in ohio........doesn't matter which one.
15,000$ per year
That is 60k dollar for four years
Where did they get the other 38k?
There is something that people do while in school. It's called Part Time Job.
Ohio tuition is among the highest in the nation. It's cheaper for Ohio residents to pay out of state tuition in Kentucky than stay at home.
I'm doing grad work at Univ. of Akron. It's make the beast with two backsing expensive.
Quote from: Goat_Herder on July 30, 2009, 02:20:07 PM
There is something that people do while in school. It's called Part Time Job.
Also, grants & scholarships can really cut into tuition costs.
For me it made going to an out of state private school cheaper than staying at a state school I could drive to.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 01:46:11 PM
How is that even possible?
I'll pick a random state school here in ohio........doesn't matter which one.
15,000$ per year
That is 60k dollar for four years
Where did they get the other 38k?
Idk, I thought that number was kind of low. Then again, my school was over 34k/year.
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 30, 2009, 03:00:11 PM
Then again, my school was over 34k/year.
That, my good man, is truly INCREDIBLE!
Danielle is finishing up at Fresno Pacific (private christian college) Total cost was around 28k ( 2 years JC, 2 years at FPU)
total of loans after grants 5K
Quote from: Cicero on July 30, 2009, 03:26:02 PM
Danielle is finishing up at Fresno Pacific (private christian college) Total cost was around 28k ( 2 years JC, 2 years at FPU)
total of loans after grants 5K
and she off-sets that with the stripper gig....right?
[laugh]
ducks and runs
At first I didn't think their cost for college was realistic either but now that I've looked at it, they don't seem that far off. At Cal Poly, the fees are 2k a quarter now. So, assuming no summer school, that's 3 quarters a year for 4 years. That's already 24k not counting rent. Let's say you've got a room for $500/mo. You're in school 9mo/year and let's be generous and give you $100/mo for food and then $50 on utilities is a little on the cheap side. That's almost another 24k for living expenses. So just under $50k for 4 years of school. Still far less than $120k. Some people's only purpose in life is to serve as an example to others. Sad, but true. She is one such example. The lesson to learn is self discipline and responsibility. In a worst case scenario like hers, you can ruin the lives of everyone in your family because you make the beast with two backsed up.
Quote from: Goat_Herder on July 30, 2009, 02:20:07 PM
There is something that people do while in school. It's called Part Time Job.
Yes, I am aware of that concept. However, part time job goes to pay for books, lodging, and cost of living (beer, food, gas, etc).
I knew a lot of people on loans and their part time jobs went to those expenses..........not the actual tuition cost.
Quote from: redxblack on July 30, 2009, 02:36:34 PM
Ohio tuition is among the highest in the nation. It's cheaper for Ohio residents to pay out of state tuition in Kentucky than stay at home.
I'm doing grad work at Univ. of Akron. It's make the beast with two backsing expensive.
I agree. Ohio State is not cheap for in-state residents. Is Univ of Akron state or private? by the way, why have we not had beers yet?
However, I came from Indiana.
I want to say IU is around 16k a year for residents..........
+1
When I was in college, my 30 hr a week part time job paid for my living expenses, rent, food, and books. There was no money left over to pay down the tuition.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 04:59:13 PM
However, part time job goes to pay for books, lodging, and cost of living (beer, food, gas, etc).
at least you got those in the correct order. ;D
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 30, 2009, 04:59:13 PM
I agree. Ohio State is not cheap for in-state residents. Is Univ of Akron state or private? by the way, why have we not had beers yet?
It's the cheapest in-state public (state) school (or was a couple years ago - I'm afraid to look anymore). Of course my bill seems to go up by 50% with FEES in addition to tuition. I'm helping to fund a new stadium that will be used 6 times a year. Let's talk RETURN ON INVESTMENT! I've also taken classes at Kent, but done it THROUGH Akron and saved about $400 because KSU is more money.
When I was undergrad, I didn't drink at all because I couldn't afford it. I even rode a bicycle because I couldn't afford the $1.50 a gallon for gas. I still have loans to pay. [bang]
I'm having a beer right now - what's your excuse? But seriously, if you can put up with an ultra lefty, I'll stop by and drink your beers. ;)
I am so glad I worked and made it through college with no loans. It was six years of hell with no breaks like everyone else had (other than the drinking :) ), but it was worth it.
I can't imagine having student loans to pay forever. Like it's not tough enough to keep up at times for most folks, including myself - and I rarely eat out, have a minimalist POS flip cell phone, etc. Then again, I own everything I have except my house (and hopefully I can kill that debt in a decade). I guess a lot of it's discipline, not to mention having parents that didn't live beyond their means and knowing the concept of saving from an early age.
I'll be paying my loans back when my kid is in college, and I didn't borrow excessively at all. I'm only just now STARTING to get on my feet financially, and it feels really foreign.
Someone was telling me they had to pay over $300 for an economics text book and decided it wasn't worth it. I think that should be an automatic A in that course.
Quote from: redxblack on July 30, 2009, 06:32:38 PM
I'm having a beer right now - what's your excuse? But seriously, if you can put up with an ultra lefty, I'll stop by and drink your beers. ;)
You can drink my beers, tree hugger. However, I am not buying you that micro hoppy IPA shit.
Can we settle on Jim Beam?
I don't mind ultra left wingers. You guys are fun to make the beast with two backs with [thumbsup]. Just watch out for my wife, she has been known to express her ultra right opinion.
or
we could just bullshit about bikes and life.
Quote from: derby on July 30, 2009, 05:12:55 PM
at least you got those in the correct order. ;D
I know, I had to think about it for a second.........actually not really. I didnt even plan it that way, I think it was a sub conscious deal.
Quote from: redxblack on July 30, 2009, 07:01:47 PM
Someone was telling me they had to pay over $300 for an economics text book and decided it wasn't worth it. I think that should be an automatic A in that course.
I paid around 385$ once for a new edition Financial Management text book.
That was a painful purchase.
My junior and senior years at butler as a Finance major........
I spent no less than 650$ a semester on text books
(only 3 semesters........I studied abroad first semester senior year. I didn't buy any books during that 3.5 mons of living in Ireland enjoying life)
She should have gone to CCAC, it's way less and sounds more like something she could handle. She's an idiot. She will get what she deserves. Too bad it will have serious negative affects on those around her - kid, Grandma, father, etc.
Wonder's if she's related to this person Grad Sues College for $70,000 Because She Can't Find a Job (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/08/03/2009-08-03_student_.html)
Gee, I wonder why she hasn't found a job yet. [roll] Freaking lazy assed generation.
Quote from: Drjones on August 03, 2009, 07:19:54 AM
Gee, I wonder why she hasn't found a job yet. [roll] Freaking lazy assed generation.
It's funny how all of you "old" people bag on this generation for being lazy cry babies... who the hell do you think raised them to be this way? Which generation got us into this current economic mess that we are in? I bet it wasn't these lazy assed people you speak of.
This sense of entitlement and lazy attitude of my generation is only present because it was given to
us them. She probably didn't hold a gun to their heads when asking to co-sign the loans. They could have said no. It is the family's burden now, because they couldn't say "NO". She obviously has more issues than just her loans.
Maybe the American
dream lie that college = better life and a job for everyone, is starting to become apparent.
Quote from: Vindingo on August 03, 2009, 08:38:02 AM
Maybe the American dream lie that college = better life and a job for everyone, is starting to become apparent.
Pretty sure a friend of mine with a 'lowly' tech school degree makes more than this enginerd. :(
Quote from: Vindingo on August 03, 2009, 08:38:02 AM
It's funny how all of you "old" people bag on this generation for being lazy cry babies... who the hell do you think raised them to be this way? Which generation got us into this current economic mess that we are in? I bet it wasn't these lazy assed people you speak of.
This sense of entitlement and lazy attitude of my generation is only present because it was given to us them. She probably didn't hold a gun to their heads when asking to co-sign the loans. They could have said no. It is the family's burden now, because they couldn't say "NO". She obviously has more issues than just her loans.
Maybe the American dream lie that college = better life and a job for everyone, is starting to become apparent.
+1
Quote from: Vindingo on August 03, 2009, 08:38:02 AM
Maybe the American dream lie that college = better life and a job for everyone, is starting to become apparent.
I've always felt this way.
not everyone is cut out to attend college and that is not a bad thing. It is of no interest to them.
Forcing people to go to college (like we do through legislation with $$$ for everyone) is not right and more people make the beast with two backs around and drop out, wasting money.
All I can ever remember growing up is you go to grade school, middle school, high school, college, and then you work. College was never not an option. It was demanded.
I asked my Mom a few years ago if I decided I wasnt interested in college and just entered the workforce, what would you say?
She said they'd support me.
I have a hard time believing that.
I didn't start college until I was 24. I think I was a better student for it as I understood the world a bit better than most of my classmates.
I agree with you CB. College is pretty much a requirement now for many jobs even though it's not actually necessary. Hell, I was looking at jobs at Blizzard. Night shift game testers need a college degree. ??? I know Blizzard is hot shit and all that and they make great games but since when does it take a college degree to play StarCraft? I've noticed more than a few of the structural engineering firms in the LA area starting to require master's degrees. I don't see the work as having gotten any harder. Maybe the BS programs have gotten easier now though. It was expected that I graduate high school. It was expected that I graduate college. Neither was anything special for me. It was just something I was supposed to do. It's kinda like getting your driving license. It's a gimme if you put in a bit of effort, you just have to wait for it sometimes.
make the beast with two backs, when I talk to most of the OLD guys in the field they don't even do proper calcs any more. It's all, "I expect to see something close to this, run the numbers and if it is, great, if it isn't do it again until it does." Well, how do you know that it's supposed to be X? "I just do from experience." >:( Mr. Omnipotent here can pull numbers out of his ass to make a building stand up. That's reassuring. [roll] Laugh, but I know there are some people that actually do engineer that way. Luckily they don't do it on the big stuff but for little things, you can be sure they aren't wasting their time. If I need to learn to be psychic and pull numbers out of my butt to engineer by feel, why are you making me waste more time in school learning theory instead of letting me get the experience to be Mr. Omnipotent as well so that I can be useful? I know I sure as heck didn't get a feel for what the numbers were supposed to be in school.
Quote from: erkishhorde on August 03, 2009, 11:28:51 AM
I've noticed more than a few of the structural engineering firms in the LA area starting to require master's degrees. I don't see the work as having gotten any harder. Maybe the BS programs have gotten easier now though.
make the beast with two backs, when I talk to most of the OLD guys in the field they don't even do proper calcs any more. It's all, "I expect to see something close to this, run the numbers and if it is, great, if it isn't do it again until it does." Well, how do you know that it's supposed to be X? "I just do from experience." >:( Mr. Omnipotent here can pull numbers out of his ass to make a building stand up. That's reassuring. [roll]
Engineering firms require Masters Degrees because they can...particularly in big cities...and especially with the economic climate like it is now. Most of our engineers, either geotech or structural, have MS degrees. Lots of competition.
You shouldn't make too much fun of "Mr. Omnipotent". A good engineer knows the answer before he/she even starts to do a calculation. A lot can be said for experience. Also, the "old guys" are usually high dollar...as in they make too much money to do routine calculations (i.e. their time spent would kill a budget). That's what staff engineers are for...do the calcs that prove what they already know/suspect.
A perfect example of this from the aerospace industry (Skunkworks): Ben Rich (young guy) was doing calculations for the F-105 Starfighter's jet intake inlets (I think this was the plane). Kelley Johnson (old guy) asks how it is going, and Ben shows him the dimensions and says it is as small as he can get it. Kelley says keep looking at it...it can be 20% smaller. Ben thinks, no make the beast with two backsing way. Turns out Kelley was right...Ben got it 20% smaller with a bit more work. [thumbsup]
the one masters degree that has turned into a joke is the MBA. Only seems to be relevant if you went to a top program but yet every tom dick and harry has one anymore, so the value of it has decreased. I can't rationalize the money at this point.
I've never figured out why people get a masters degree to teach First Grade. Yes, I know because of the pay grade, but really a masters for 1st Grader's? I am not knocking being a teacher (my sis in law is one and we've breached this topic) just don't think it would require a Master's
Quote from: erkishhorde on August 03, 2009, 11:28:51 AM
I've noticed more than a few of the structural engineering firms in the LA area starting to require master's degrees. I don't see the work as having gotten any harder. Maybe the BS programs have gotten easier now though. It was expected that I graduate high school. It was expected that I graduate college. Neither was anything special for me. It was just something I was supposed to do. It's kinda like getting your driving license. It's a gimme if you put in a bit of effort, you just have to wait for it sometimes.
It is the same thing with architecture. I have a masters degree in architecture because it is becoming the standard to become a licensed architect. If you don't get one, you have to apprentice longer to get your stamp. Most of the arch jobs I have applied for were asking for people with MArchs. Like TripleJ said, because of the economy, they can... You also have to know every single computer program, have 75 years of experience, been published in 3 languages and best of all be willing to work for $4.37/hr.
Did I mention I work for myself now as a carpenter/handyman... and I am going back to school in September! I hope to have a news article about my debt one day.
Another genius lawsuit [roll]
http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/?fpn=teen%20s%20lawsuit%20my%20kindle%20ate%20my%20homework (http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/?fpn=teen%20s%20lawsuit%20my%20kindle%20ate%20my%20homework)
WTF is wrong with people. Suing over a book report. gawd damn. Just read it again you pansy...it's like a 150 pages.
Quote from: Triple J on August 03, 2009, 01:12:00 PM
Another genius lawsuit [roll]
http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/?fpn=teen%20s%20lawsuit%20my%20kindle%20ate%20my%20homework (http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/?fpn=teen%20s%20lawsuit%20my%20kindle%20ate%20my%20homework)
WTF is wrong with people. Suing over a book report. gawd damn. Just read it again you pansy...it's like a 150 pages.
But it's hard to read through a whole book and retain that information long enough to write a book report. [roll]
I long for the good old days, when things were simpler, when technology wasn't so fearsome, when you could listen to a book on tape and dictate your notes and insights on a micro cassette recorder. :P
Justin Gawronski isn't going to get into a good school. Well, I wouldn't want him attending my university for fear that he might sue the school for not getting a job...
Unfortunately, today you need a college degree to prove you can read, write and do arithmetic at what used to be the eight grade level.
Quote from: howie on August 03, 2009, 01:31:04 PM
Unfortunately, today you need a college degree to prove you can read, write and do arithmetic at what used to be the eight grade level.
I wasn't aware it proved any of that :P
I have a friend who dated a dude (on the university football team) that was a junior in college, and he COULD NOT read. He was illiterate and made it through his entire life on his athletic ability. No he didn't go pro...
Girls an idiot. Seriously, how's it feel to live as a victim of the universe? No personal accountablity/responsiblity, I guess it's a nice gig if you can find it... and have no sense pride.
I vote she take up stripping.
Quote from: MrIncredible on August 03, 2009, 02:27:05 PM
I vote she take up stripping.
her potential earnings dropped when the child popped out. She should have figured that one into the spreadsheet...
she fell below a 2.0! that says it all. rot in your debt, you don't deserve a job. go back to the bowling alley with your people.
Stripper! ;D
Quote from: MrIncredible on August 03, 2009, 02:27:05 PM
I vote she take up stripping.
I think he's on to something here. [thumbsup]
Corrected:
Quote from: howie on August 03, 2009, 01:31:04 PM
Unfortunately, today you need a college degree to prove you can allegedly read, write and do arithmetic at what used to be the eight grade level.
Quote from: TAftonomos on August 03, 2009, 05:36:13 PM
Stripper! ;D
not sure if she has the potential for that either...
I'm guessing she's too thick for the pole or this lawsuit would never have happened.
Quote from: redxblack on August 04, 2009, 08:45:03 PM
I'm guessing she's too thick for the pole or this lawsuit would never have happened.
(http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200907/ds_biz_debt_majorie_julia_0_500.jpg)
Quote from: MrIncredible on August 04, 2009, 09:14:03 PM
(http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200907/ds_biz_debt_majorie_julia_0_500.jpg)
Quote from: MrIncredible on August 03, 2009, 02:27:05 PM
I vote she take up stripping.
Quote from: Goat_Herder on August 04, 2009, 10:15:36 AM
not sure if she has the potential for that either...
I rest my case.... :-\
Quote from: Goat_Herder on August 04, 2009, 10:12:35 PM
I rest my case.... :-\
ahhhhhhhhh pleather......so soft.
Quote from: al@sktc on August 05, 2009, 07:13:05 AM
ahhhhhhhhh pleather......so soft.
it's a burgh thing :(