So
What dose the DMF think of GM's
VOLT?
You can get a much cooler car for a lot less... $40,000 it impress some hippies is a lot of dough.
A new BMW/Audi start at 10,000 less.
So you could get a car and a bike for the same price.
My vote is a definite NO [roll]
Nope.
When it was a sports car, sure.
Now, hell no...
$40K+
Size of a Cobalt
Lithium Ion batteries = ?? - Although it doesn't go on sale until November 2010, so they may be ready by then.
What will gas prices be at that time?
I will wait until sometime in 2011 to decide for sure, but the problems I see so far are:
It probably will not be a good primary family vehicle.
Cost, though I think there is up to $7,500 from the government to buy it.
The real economy estimate is about 100 MPG, the 240 MPG is based on a 40 mile round trip commute at slow speed with no accessories on, like heat, AC or lights and starting out with fresh batteries.
Battery replacement cost, a 16 KWH lithium ion battery pack ain't gonna be cheap. GM hasn't even figured out how to deal with that. They may lease the batteries.
The Volt is not a zero emissions vehicle when running on battery. Emissions are produced during battery charging.
At this point, the Volt will be second car for the wealthy and may make it's way into some corporate fleets. But it is the beginning of a learning curve.
I like it and I am glad to see an American company getting serious about it. No electric vehicle will be perfect in its first generation, but the manufacturers will learn a lot getting it on the road, and then making improvements.
mitt
Yeah, did you see the Top Gear episode with the Tesla?
(I think it was Jalopnik) out TopGear for being a bit over dramatic about their Tesla issues... It hurt deep to think Jeremy might fib.
Volt... I think it'll have issues - but it's the 1st of it's kind so that's expected. It'd good to see an American company leading in a segment of the field. It's been too long since an American auto firm can say they did it first.
Depending on the timing, I expect to see a number purchased by my county gov. They have been working towards replacing the bulk of their car fleet with Priusssss. Better mpg and made in this country - they'd be (politically) smart to add them in place of the future Prius purchase.
The price point is a bit dear - but as noted there are going to be some hefty incentives that will price the price point down a bunch.
Over all, I hope it makes it.
What did Chevy do first? The Volt? No, Tesla Motors has already shipped cars to owners...
they are the first to do it in any real numbers...or will be
but
If you want to nitpick
Fisher-Price was the first to put electric cars in garages of owners
:-P
This is GMs second mass produced electric car, but the first that will be available nationally and for sale. The old ones were lease only.
Tesla is 100% electric while the Volt still uses an gas powered genny 'range extender' - That's what I was referring to as it's first. There's been electric cars before Tesla also
Quote from: Eeyore on August 12, 2009, 05:29:49 AM
they are the first to do it in any real numbers...or will be
but
If you want to nitpick
Fisher-Price was the first to put electric cars in garages of owners
:-P
If you want to nitpick Robert Anderson of Scotland invented the first crude electric carriage in 1832
Tesla was the first to Mass-Produce and SELL electric cars...
so was fisher-price
tell us about your GM anger issues nakid
Quote from: NAKID on August 12, 2009, 05:54:40 AM
Tesla was the first to Mass-Produce and SELL electric cars...
No sir. Reva has been making the G-wiz (as shit as it is) since 2001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVA)
They killed off a good thing with the EV-1...
Quote from: yuu on August 12, 2009, 06:11:16 AM
No sir. Reva has been making the G-wiz (as shit as it is) since 2001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVA)
OK, in the United States...
Give people incentives to ride their bikes to work. That will cut down on pollution, congestion, and wear on the roadways. let's say a tax break for someone who rides 8,000 miles a year. Everything is in place to monitor mileage already, such as state inspections or yearly registrations.
the incentive would not be enough to cover tires
look at all the other tax incentives
100 dollars here, 250 there
they are never very much
the only real incentive to ride is already in place
50mpg
From Autoblog.com:
"EPA has not tested a Chevy Volt and therefore cannot confirm the fuel economy values claimed by GM. EPA does applaud GM's commitment to designing and building the car of the future - an American-made car that will save families money, significantly reduce our dependence on foreign oil and create good-paying American jobs. We're proud to see American companies and American workers leading the world in the clean energy innovations that will shape the 21st century economy."
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/epa-backs-away-from-gm-claim-of-230-mpg-for-volt/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/epa-backs-away-from-gm-claim-of-230-mpg-for-volt/)
Are they making the batteries in country?
Probably not. Last I heard it was S Korea
Yuu is correct. The batteries are made in South Korea. GM is building a factory in Michigan to assemble the battery packs, however.
I really wish they would stop using the Prius as the starting point for the visual design of electric or hybrid cars. GM has done alright though - it looks like one of the better products of a flawed gene pool.
As far as technology goes, even 100 MPG for a small 4-door would be good. We have to start someplace. And I think what GM is bringing to the table is a plug-in electric that doesn't sacrifice range and usability. There have been electric cars (in fact, by GM) before but none of them have really hit these marks.
Quote from: il d00d on August 12, 2009, 07:49:14 AM
I really wish they would stop using the Prius as the starting point for the visual design of electric or hybrid cars. GM has done alright though - it looks like one of the better products of a flawed gene pool.
Tesla did well. Now Honda.. wow they just cloned the prius with their new hybrid
Quote from: Eeyore on August 12, 2009, 06:35:07 AM
the incentive would not be enough to cover tires
look at all the other tax incentives
100 dollars here, 250 there
they are never very much
the only real incentive to ride is already in place
50mpg
If they made it a worthwhile incentive it could make a difference. I'm tired of hearing "spend this much on a new car to save a few miles per gallon". A bike leaves a much smaller carbon footprint. Less energy to build and dispose of a bike versus a car. You can't tell me if 25% more people rode to work or school it wouldn't make it better for the environment. Save the car for family time.
Quote from: Ducaholic on August 12, 2009, 07:55:38 AM
A bike leaves a much smaller carbon footprint.
I am not so sure about that. Bikes are more fuel efficient, but their emissions/mile are typically much higher than a car.
Here is a comparison I posted up in this thread (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20119)
Hydrocarbon Emissions (grams per mile)
2002 Ford Expedition 4WD : 0.15
2002 YZF R6 :
**4.19**2002 BMW R1200C : 0.97
2002 Honda VTX1800C : 0.48
We're mixing metaphors. Carbon footprint also takes into account production 'costs' - not just tail emissions. Though something like a prius has very low tail emissions, it takes a shit ton of energy to make one. Something like 11,000,000 BTUs to get it to the show room. *Edit - I was off my a factor of 10... 113,000,000 BTU http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/05/the-ultimate-pr/comment-page-4/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/05/the-ultimate-pr/comment-page-4/)
But yeah, bikes tend to put out more dirt per mile traveled than most autos. Lack of Cat converters in many bikes plays a big roll here.. and then there's 2-smokers
Quote from: il d00d on August 12, 2009, 08:15:40 AM
I am not so sure about that. Bikes are more fuel efficient, but their emissions/mile are typically much higher than a car.
Here is a comparison I posted up in this thread (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20119)
Hydrocarbon Emissions (grams per mile)
2002 Ford Expedition 4WD : 0.15
2002 YZF R6 :**4.19**
2002 BMW R1200C : 0.97
2002 Honda VTX1800C : 0.48
I stand corrected. You wouldn't happen to have those numbers for a bike with a cat would you?
This is the study I pulled those from:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03045.pdf (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03045.pdf)
It is kinda dated, but there may have been a bike with a cat in 2002-2003.
That study was eye opener for me too, I had no idea until I started comparing numbers. I still think two wheels > four wheels, but if we want to promote them as a green option, there will be a sacrifice in performance.
Maybe not so much a sacrifice in performance so much as we leave them stock or start the dreaded emissions testing. If bikes had the same emissions standards as cars do then they would pollute much much less. Don't flame me on that one, neither of my cages have any emissions stuff and my bike has stage 2 jetting.
monsters had cats back in 2002
Quote from: Eeyore on August 12, 2009, 12:39:50 PM
monsters had cats back in 2002
Which one? I've worked on a few and the DSS sure didn't and the SSS bikes didn't show up for a couple years on
Quote from: yuu on August 12, 2009, 12:43:03 PM
Which one? I've worked on a few and the DSS sure didn't and the SSS bikes didn't show up for a couple years on
My 2003 620 has cats in the pipes and the pipes are the same back to 2001
Interesting... they changed up stuff. 620 do have then in the headers.. though they moved them to the silencers for the 695 - or maybe added...
Well... color me corrected
I'm just curious as to the HC count of a new unmodified bike. The R6 numbers can't be that bad in stock form.
Quote from: yuu on August 12, 2009, 01:08:04 PM
Interesting... they changed up stuff. 620 do have then in the headers.. though they moved them to the silencers for the 695 - or maybe added...
Well... color me corrected
I shouldn't have said pipe, they are not in the header
They are in the slip-on
Quote from: il d00d on August 12, 2009, 08:15:40 AM
I am not so sure about that. Bikes are more fuel efficient, but their emissions/mile are typically much higher than a car.
Here is a comparison I posted up in this thread (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20119)
Hydrocarbon Emissions (grams per mile)
2002 Ford Expedition 4WD : 0.15
2002 YZF R6 :**4.19**
2002 BMW R1200C : 0.97
2002 Honda VTX1800C : 0.48
If you are talking about hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and oxides of nitrogen you are correct, but the story changes when you talk about carbon dioxide and fuel consumption (carbon footprint), which, right or wrong, is where the pressure is on.
Also note that these bikes are pre Euro 3 emissions and only the BMW has a catalytic converter.
Quote from: Eeyore on August 12, 2009, 12:45:42 PM
My 2003 620 has cats in the pipes and the pipes are the same back to 2001
I don't think so.
Original design: [thumbsup]
(http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/07images/autos/gm/volt/voltconcept-600.jpg)
New design: [puke]
(http://www.allamericanhybrid.com/blog/uploaded_images/ldvolt-717267.jpg)
Quote from: Ducaholic on August 12, 2009, 06:29:45 AM
Give people incentives to ride their bikes to work. That will cut down on pollution, congestion, and wear on the roadways. let's say a tax break for someone who rides 8,000 miles a year. Everything is in place to monitor mileage already, such as state inspections or yearly registrations.
The only incentive I would accept is a personal valet waiting to hand me my suit after I have a shower upon arriving at the office. It was 96 deg the other day and I have a 25 minute drive (by car) to the office. And I have to wear a suit.
I know there are plenty of people who don't wear suits to work, but when you are talking about the bulk of people in many cities -- you are talking about suits and ties (and blouses and skirts etc)
Bikes don't cut it. I have a hard time even on the Monster. Just doesn't work.
Quote from: Eeyore on August 12, 2009, 12:39:50 PM
monsters had cats back in 2002
Nope. Incorrect. Motorcycles did not require catalysts until 2006 MY.
My 2005 S2R udder weighs half what a 2006 S2R udder weighs. The MY2005 models had no catalyst.
Quote from: yuu on August 12, 2009, 07:54:13 AM
Tesla did well. Now Honda.. wow they just cloned the prius with their new hybrid
Except for the whole Hydrogen Fuel cell thingy [roll]
Quote from: ducatiz on August 12, 2009, 06:11:15 PM
The only incentive I would accept is a personal valet waiting to hand me my suit after I have a shower upon arriving at the office. It was 96 deg the other day and I have a 25 minute drive (by car) to the office. And I have to wear a suit.
I know there are plenty of people who don't wear suits to work, but when you are talking about the bulk of people in many cities -- you are talking about suits and ties (and blouses and skirts etc)
Bikes don't cut it. I have a hard time even on the Monster. Just doesn't work.
Which is why they made this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1)
Quote from: howie on August 12, 2009, 06:28:40 PM
Which is why they made this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1)
". It was never made available in the USA."
i saw one in Istanbul, it was fairly cool up close. Kind of weird though, the top made it feel like it would tip.
Quote from: ducatiz on August 12, 2009, 06:11:15 PM
The only incentive I would accept is a personal valet waiting to hand me my suit after I have a shower upon arriving at the office. It was 96 deg the other day and I have a 25 minute drive (by car) to the office. And I have to wear a suit.
I know there are plenty of people who don't wear suits to work, but when you are talking about the bulk of people in many cities -- you are talking about suits and ties (and blouses and skirts etc)
Bikes don't cut it. I have a hard time even on the Monster. Just doesn't work.
You got me there
Quote from: ducatiz on August 12, 2009, 06:36:32 PM
". It was never made available in the USA."
i saw one in Istanbul, it was fairly cool up close. Kind of weird though, the top made it feel like it would tip.
Quite a short model run too. Over priced, underpowered and downright geeky.
Quote from: howie on August 12, 2009, 07:13:11 PM
Quite a short model run too. Over priced, underpowered and downright geeky.
So a typical BMW?
Quote from: ducpainter on August 12, 2009, 05:54:01 PM
I don't think so.
Quote from: ducatiz on August 12, 2009, 06:13:21 PM
Nope. Incorrect. Motorcycles did not require catalysts until 2006 MY.
My 2005 S2R udder weighs half what a 2006 S2R udder weighs. The MY2005 models had no catalyst.
well mine does
looks like this right at the inlet end of both slip-ons
(http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00aBjtGHWJqRzgM/Motorcycle-Catalytic-Converter.jpg)
Quote from: Eeyore on August 12, 2009, 08:35:04 PM
well mine does
looks like this right at the inlet end of both slip-ons
(http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00aBjtGHWJqRzgM/Motorcycle-Catalytic-Converter.jpg)
We've always known you were special. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on August 13, 2009, 02:26:35 AM
We've always known you were special. ;D
[laugh]
according to this article
http://origin-www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ducati/2003-ducati-monster-1000-14550.html?page=2 (http://origin-www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ducati/2003-ducati-monster-1000-14550.html?page=2)
The '03 Euro spec bikes (Euro 1 emissions standard) had the cats
but
Not the USA spec bikes
so either they made a shipping error and I got a euro bike
or
The boys and girls in bologna made a part number error and i got euro spec cans
I'd be beating that stuff out of there.
Quote from: ducpainter on August 13, 2009, 02:31:05 AM
I'd be beating that stuff out of there.
it's not ceramic like a standard cat
it is rolled up corrugated metal
I've thought about pounding it out
but
I have a lightweight flywheel, PCIII, open airbox, and cored pipes gutted to the first chamber where the cats reside
and no valve adjustment for 40,000 miles
I still get 50mpg
I have this horrible feeling that if I make the beast with two backs with it any more
it will explode
I'd consider adjusting the valves.
Quote from: ducpainter on August 13, 2009, 02:51:39 AM
I'd consider adjusting the valves.
People keep saying that [roll]
;D
Quote from: Cicero on August 12, 2009, 06:17:55 PM
Except for the whole Hydrogen Fuel cell thingy [roll]
I was talking about the look of them. If you parked gen 3 prius and the new insight side by side w/o brand badges they are basically identical on the outside. Space pod look, 2 window hach back blah blah.
A news piece talked about this a little. Honda had (has?) the civic hybrid and has for years. On most accounts it was a litt better than a the prius. But, save for different wheels, a couple small items, and badges it looked like any other civic. Researchers interviewed people who bought hybrids, specifically the Prius over the civic and found a lot made selection based on the look. In some cases if was they wanted to look different, in a number of others they just didn't know Honda had one since it didn't look significantly different. So I guess Honda fell in line with the 'hybrid look'
The Clarity (honda fuel cell) doesn't look like so much of a Prius clone as the new Insight.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on August 12, 2009, 06:43:20 AM
From Autoblog.com:
"EPA has not tested a Chevy Volt and therefore cannot confirm the fuel economy values claimed by GM. EPA does applaud GM's commitment to designing and building the car of the future - an American-made car that will save families money, significantly reduce our dependence on foreign oil and create good-paying American jobs. We're proud to see American companies and American workers leading the world in the clean energy innovations that will shape the 21st century economy."
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/epa-backs-away-from-gm-claim-of-230-mpg-for-volt/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/epa-backs-away-from-gm-claim-of-230-mpg-for-volt/)
One of the issues, I do believe, is that the EPA & GM disagreed on the definition of a duty cycle for the MPG testing of the Volt. Last year I read a story in Motor Trend that I hyperlink'd below. Here's the relevent text.
"Now, here's the rub: Reports suggest the Volt can make it through the EPA test cycle -- which from 2008 includes high-speed running, air-conditioning load, and cold-start tests in addition to the city and highway cycles -- with the internal-combustion engine running about 15% of the time.
The straightforward calculation gives the Volt an EPA fuel-consumption rating somewhere north of 100 mpg. But the EPA apparently wants to certify the Volt differently, insisting it finishes the test with the batteries close to full charge. That drops the calculated fuel consumption to just under 48 mpg, because the internal-combustion engine would have to be run essentially all the time to keep the batteries near full charge."
http://blogs.motortrend.com/6293345/government/could-the-epa-cripple-the-chevy-volt/index.html (http://blogs.motortrend.com/6293345/government/could-the-epa-cripple-the-chevy-volt/index.html)
Quote from: Eeyore on August 13, 2009, 02:29:33 AM
[laugh]
according to this article
http://origin-www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ducati/2003-ducati-monster-1000-14550.html?page=2 (http://origin-www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ducati/2003-ducati-monster-1000-14550.html?page=2)
The '03 Euro spec bikes (Euro 1 emissions standard) had the cats
but
Not the USA spec bikes
so either they made a shipping error and I got a euro bike
or
The boys and girls in bologna made a part number error and i got euro spec cans
No shipping error, the 620s shipped to the US had cats. as did the 695s. The other Monsters did not until the SR2 1000. The US SR2 800, at least in the beginning, used the udder as a pre muffler and had no cat. The US 696 does not have a cat, at least for now.
From the owner's manual:
Exhaust system
Equipped with catalytic converter in compliance with Euro 3
emission regulations.
USA model: not catalyzed.
Same for the Monster 1100.
We are presently behind Europe on motorcycle emissions standards.
so they put euro 3 emissions on the little monsters
and
left the bigger monsters to spew forth the filth
why does that seem backwards to me?