http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/06/news/economy/detroit_food/index.htm?postversion=2009080610 (http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/06/news/economy/detroit_food/index.htm?postversion=2009080610)
what????
Poorer neighborhoods have long had a problem with getting major grocery chains to build stores (they don't due to crime, vandalism, etc) there. Then, to get the food to the areas inhabitants, they must either drive to major chain grocery stores or go to the local stores (as the story indicates). Smaller stores = higher prices and they're already in a poor neighborhood so it just becomes a vicious circle.
Sad but true...
A vicious cycle the people living in those neighborhoods perpetuate.
major grocery chains limit their investments and liability in lower income areas
groceries leave the store
but are often not paid for
i've seen it first hand
it's my fault
just wall it in and make it a maximum security prison. throw kurt russell in for laffs too.
Quote from: bobspapa on August 12, 2009, 05:38:13 PM
it's my fault
go put your nose in the corner, a minute a year is the rule so that's like an hour and half for you huh BP [cheeky]
Hmmm, metal detectors, armed cashiers with kevlar uniforms and lots of bob wire.....there is a niche in there somewhere, probably deserving of stimulus dollars......can anyone here write a business plan?
I have spent some time in Detroit, Chicago, etc when I was testing 911...it was really odd to see stores in poorer neighborhoods with the high walls with fences atop them with only 1 or 2 driveways to get in and out of the parking lots. But still, the ammount of grafitti and just the overall shithole appearance to them was eye opening. If I were a business, I wouldn't waste my time if my "customers" were going to treat me that way.
Quote from: rgramjet on August 13, 2009, 04:06:44 AM
Hmmm, metal detectors, armed cashiers with kevlar uniforms and lots of bob wire.....there is a niche in there somewhere, probably deserving of stimulus dollars......can anyone here write a business plan?
I invented that.
The other guy was responsible for the barbed stuff
I'd love for some people to try to live in neighborhoods like this for a year. Blaming people for their poverty is far too simple minded to be taken seriously. Poverty is a complex issue with MANY variables. People in poverty is one of them.
Akron had some real problems w/ urban decay after the rubber industry left in the 1980s. One neighborhood I lived in petitioned for almost 20 years to get a grocery store in their area. They finally got it. It's not Detroit level poverty, just a poor industrial area. The store is not tagged up and neighborhood activists paint over any tags that show up throughout the community. The store is thriving and even expanding now. When I lived in the area, I was fortunate enough to have a car. I could drive to the burbs and get groceries. People who took the bus couldn't nearly as well.
Quote from: redxblack on August 13, 2009, 07:07:26 AM
I'd love for some people to try to live in neighborhoods like this for a year. Blaming people for their poverty is far too simple minded to be taken seriously. Poverty is a complex issue with MANY variables. People in poverty is one of them.
Akron had some real problems w/ urban decay after the rubber industry left in the 1980s. One neighborhood I lived in petitioned for almost 20 years to get a grocery store in their area. They finally got it. It's not Detroit level poverty, just a poor industrial area. The store is not tagged up and neighborhood activists paint over any tags that show up throughout the community. The store is thriving and even expanding now. When I lived in the area, I was fortunate enough to have a car. I could drive to the burbs and get groceries. People who took the bus couldn't nearly as well.
I lived in a shitty area in Indianapolis during college (a few blocks north of 38th and meridian). Fortunately, I had a vehicle to go get groceries. The "local" corner stores were expensive, shitty, and I didn't know what half the food products were for. I believe the chain was called 8-Ball Foods; I am not joking, being racist, etc. That was the name of the hood' grocery store.
Blaming people for poverty is a complex issues, that can be talked about and fought about for days.
However..............
Maybe if these people were respectful and acted like a good human, there would be stores in their neighborhoods.
However, they choose to disrespect the privilege by vandalism, graffitti, theft, robbery, loitering, etc.
That is 100% their fault. Maybe Jesse and Al should get together and have a talk with the people they defend and start working to clean up their own act instead of relying on government assistance.
Quote from: rgramjet on August 13, 2009, 04:06:44 AM
Hmmm, metal detectors, armed cashiers with kevlar uniforms and lots of bob wire.....there is a niche in there somewhere, probably deserving of stimulus dollars......can anyone here write a business plan?
Hi, welcome to the Kroger off Ponce de Leon in Atlanta.
(I'm not kidding.)
Quote from: wbeck257 on August 13, 2009, 07:20:10 AM
Hi, welcome to the Kroger off Ponce de Leon in Atlanta.
(I'm not kidding.)
Metal detectors??
At the Giant Eagle up the road, there is an armed guard (local police working some contract work) and I live in a nice area.
I wonder if it is because they have a bank in the store?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on August 13, 2009, 07:19:21 AM
I lived in a shitty area in Indianapolis during college (a few blocks north of 38th and meridian). Fortunately, I had a vehicle to go get groceries. The "local" corner stores were expensive, shitty, and I didn't know what half the food products were for. I believe the chain was called 8-Ball Foods; I am not joking, being racist, etc. That was the name of the hood' grocery store.
Blaming people for poverty is a complex issues, that can be talked about and fought about for days.
However..............
Maybe if these people were respectful and acted like a good human, there would be stores in their neighborhoods.
However, they choose to disrespect the privilege by vandalism, graffitti, theft, robbery, loitering, etc.
That is 100% their fault. Maybe Jesse and Al should get together and have a talk with the people they defend and start working to clean up their own act instead of relying on government assistance.
Dude, you can't "however" these people. Clearly you have nice things (a Ducati, for example) and care about them. But what if you never had ANYTHING? All the clothing you wore and the food you ate and the house you live in and the books you read in school, all were secondhand, beat-up, overpriced crap. I can pretty much guarantee that "keeping it nice" wouldn't occur to you. You'd never even have a baseline of what "nice" even looked like.
-Dan
Quote from: Razzo Bolognese on August 13, 2009, 07:40:58 AM
Dude, you can't "however" these people. Clearly you have nice things (a Ducati, for example) and care about them. But what if you never had ANYTHING? All the clothing you wore and the food you ate and the house you live in and the books you read in school, all were secondhand, beat-up, overpriced crap. I can pretty much guarantee that "keeping it nice" wouldn't occur to you. You'd never even have a baseline of what "nice" even looked like.
-Dan
I understand what you are saying.
that is where community leaders and groups need to lead a charge to better their neighborhoods and their lives. Parents need to start taking part in their kids education and giving a shit what they grow up to be.
I think I might be getting borderline political here, so I should probably stop.
or
I should stop smoking the doobie as I am becoming a "dreamer"
Quote from: redxblack on August 13, 2009, 07:07:26 AM
I'd love for some people to try to live in neighborhoods like this for a year. Blaming people for their poverty is far too simple minded to be taken seriously. Poverty is a complex issue with MANY variables. People in poverty is one of them.
Akron had some real problems w/ urban decay after the rubber industry left in the 1980s. One neighborhood I lived in petitioned for almost 20 years to get a grocery store in their area. They finally got it. It's not Detroit level poverty, just a poor industrial area. The store is not tagged up and neighborhood activists paint over any tags that show up throughout the community. The store is thriving and even expanding now. When I lived in the area, I was fortunate enough to have a car. I could drive to the burbs and get groceries. People who took the bus couldn't nearly as well.
You're right it is a complex issue, but blaming people for their poverty isn't simple minded. Anything you do, short of turning it into a prison type system (supermarket w/ barb wire etc.) will depend on people of the community and if that part of it isn't working for the better it's a lost cause.
I lived in a bunch of crap holes and in one project for 5 years all in nyc . Some of those neighborhoods had people that earned dirt but still took care of their neighborhood and in turn the neighborhood had sustainable businesses. Same income bracket different neighborhood and all you find is chinese take out and liquor stores with bulletproof glass cages.
Quote from: Razzo Bolognese on August 13, 2009, 07:40:58 AM
I can pretty much guarantee that "keeping it nice" wouldn't occur to you.
-Dan
Actually it did, because I knew I wouldn't be able to get a replacement.
Quote from: Pakhan on August 13, 2009, 07:56:32 AM
Actually it did, because I knew I wouldn't be able to get a replacement.
Again, that is something that parents need to teach their children at a young age.
Be respectful of your property/possession and if you break it/lose it/etc, there is not going to be a replacement.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on August 13, 2009, 08:08:59 AM
Again, that is something that parents need to teach their children at a young age.
Be respectful of your property/possession and if you break it/lose it/etc, there is not going to be a replacement.
absolutely, but sometimes that's just a lesson you find out the hard way or just keep repeating.
Quote from: Pakhan on August 13, 2009, 07:56:32 AM
...I lived in a bunch of crap holes and in one project for 5 years all in nyc . Some of those neighborhoods had people that earned dirt but still took care of their neighborhood and in turn the neighborhood had sustainable businesses. Same income bracket different neighborhood and all you find is chinese take out and liquor stores with bulletproof glass cages.
Actually it did, because I knew I wouldn't be able to get a replacement.
Jake I'm guessing those five years in the ghetto weren't the formative years of your life. Also, I'm not saying people aren't the master of their own destinies. I'm just saying that our perspective is not the same as their perspective. The people in my Harlem neighborhood are working class, good people who care about their 'hood and the shops etc. therein. Still, it is in Harlem. I've NEVER seen a street sweeper, I've NEVER seen a traffic cop and I've NEVER seen my subway stop look freshly painted. There's no political grease money so there are no improvements being made. Money talks. This is why poor folks have no voice in politics.
My two bits,
-Dan
Quote from: Razzo Bolognese on August 13, 2009, 08:13:44 AM
Still, it is in Harlem. I've NEVER seen a street sweeper, I've NEVER seen a traffic cop and I've NEVER seen my subway stop look freshly painted. There's no political grease money so there are no improvements being made. Money talks. This is why poor folks have no voice in politics.
I bet if the less respectful citizens quit make the beast with two backsing shit up, then they would see those nice improvements.
Why should the city spend money to paint a subway stop that is just going to get defaced the next day?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on August 13, 2009, 08:08:59 AM
Again, that is something that parents need to teach their children at a young age.
Exactly.
Being poor does not mean you can't be a respectful and good person.
I grew up fairly poor. When I was very young my mom would often skip meals so I could eat, and go to daycare when she was at work. We may not have had the nicest or newest things, but what we had was clean and taken care of.
Even during my elementary through middle school years my parents (an awesome step dad now in the picture) didn't have a lot of money. I never got the cool clothes I wanted, and didn't have much extra. We lived in a so so neighborhood. However, our house was always kept nice, and I always was told the importance of school and being a good, honest person...responsible for myself. It wasn't until I hit High School that things started to turn around for my parents financially...by then I knew that I needed to work (literally) for anything I wanted.
It all boils down to parenting. If the parents are alcoholics, druggies, or thugs then the kids most likely will be as well. If the parents are good people, then the kids most likely will be as well. There are plenty of kids out there that grew up in the projects and are now successful.
Quote from: Razzo Bolognese on August 13, 2009, 08:13:44 AM
Jake I'm guessing those five years in the ghetto weren't the formative years of your life. Also, I'm not saying people aren't the master of their own destinies. I'm just saying that our perspective is not the same as their perspective. The people in my Harlem neighborhood are working class, good people who care about their 'hood and the shops etc. therein. Still, it is in Harlem. I've NEVER seen a street sweeper, I've NEVER seen a traffic cop and I've NEVER seen my subway stop look freshly painted. There's no political grease money so there are no improvements being made. Money talks. This is why poor folks have no voice in politics.
My two bits,
-Dan
You're right not my formative years.
Yes it's true you won't have the same attention toward a poor working class good neighborhood as opposed to a mid/ high income neighborhood. It's just the way that is though, but it's still better when the community respects itself and hopefully municipal help will come in later.
It's not worth talking about. You can't save people (adults and teens..).. Nurturing is destiny.
We went to dinner last night at a nice place, saw a family from a particular country that I won't name They were dressed nicely, but ate like they grew up in the woods. Hands all in the food, talking with food hanging out of their mouths, wiping their mouth on sleeves.
Like I said, they were dressed nicely, but their mannerisms bespoke an upbringing far from civilization -- and those were just table manners.
Change table manners with "problem solution" and "dispute resolution" and "common courtesy" and you have the recipe for a really nasty soup.
Quote from: ducatiz on August 13, 2009, 08:57:44 AM
It's not worth talking about. You can't save people (adults and teens..).. Nurturing is destiny.
We went to dinner last night at a nice place, saw a family from a particular country that I won't name They were dressed nicely, but ate like they grew up in the woods. Hands all in the food, talking with food hanging out of their mouths, wiping their mouth on sleeves.
Like I said, they were dressed nicely, but their mannerisms bespoke an upbringing far from civilization -- and those were just table manners.
Change table manners with "problem solution" and "dispute resolution" and "common courtesy" and you have the recipe for a really nasty soup.
I'm guessing mid-east or Africa. Been to those locations and that's their 'norm' for table manners. I would attribute that more to culture differences than manners/ lack of respect. Go to China and it's a compliment to the chef to burp at the table. Fart in someone else's house in Afghanistan and you've started a blood feud. Cultural differences.
Tearing up your own neighborhood because you feel neglected or oppressed is just stupid. There is no excuse for this type of behavior. There is lots of money to be made in these urban areas if the inhabitants would simply behave themselves, but their own actions are the reason no sane businessman wants to open shop. I've lived in these areas and we traveled out of the area to do our shopping to avoid our neighbors. Go to a movie in an economically stressed urban setting and see the behavior of the locals. Disgusting.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on August 13, 2009, 07:19:21 AM
Maybe if these people were respectful and acted like a good human, there would be stores in their neighborhoods.
However, they choose to disrespect the privilege by vandalism, graffitti, theft, robbery, loitering, etc.
People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.
Quote from: redxblack on August 13, 2009, 09:53:05 AM
People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.
Cyrus's Solution:
1. Bring back neighborhood schools
2. Require parents to walk children <10 to school or drive them
3. Replace teachers with Sociologists.
4. Teach said children what it is like to be a respectful person
5. Require parents to sign off on kids homework
6. Smoke another J because my idea is so far fetched, but legit.
Quote from: redxblack on August 13, 2009, 09:53:05 AM
People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.
People who don't behave like criminals usually have prospects and opportunities. Their current plight is a symptom of their behavior.
Quote from: redxblack on August 13, 2009, 09:53:05 AM
People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.
How do they not have opportunities? The is the US, not Somalia.
There are jobs everywhere. Maybe not their dream job, and they may not become rich, but there are jobs. There are also public schools so no one has an excuse for not taking advantage of it. Beyond K-12 there are also trade schools, union apprenticeship programs, community colleges, govt. education loans, etc. There is also public transit in most places to get them to their job/school/whatever.
People have to stop making excuses and blaming others.
Quote from: Triple J on August 13, 2009, 10:06:14 AM
How do they not have opportunities? The is the US, not Somalia.
There are jobs everywhere. Maybe not their dream job, and they may not become rich, but there are jobs. There are also public schools so no one has an excuse for not taking advantage of it. Beyond K-12 there are also trade schools, union apprenticeship programs, community colleges, govt. education loans, etc. There is also public transit in most places to get them to their job/school/whatever.
People have to stop making excuses and blaming others.
amen to that
back home, grunt construction jobs were always taken by college age kids of all kinds (when i was growing up)... not the skilled stuff but the unskilled stuff. at some point, the college kids started refusing to do that work, never mind it was $25/hour (and this was the 80s).
for that reason, and I do not criticize them for it, hispanics moved in, mostly from Mexico and started taking the crap jobs. now, my home town has 4 spanish radio stations and there are tons of spanish businesses (restaurants, law firms, etc). All the latino workers took the $25/hr jobs, said "this is make the beast with two backsing great" and put their kids in college and are moving up.
there is no solution.
some people are just born with a case of the dumb.
those people flock together and they mate.
no schooling fixes it.
it's the way of the world.... the way it's always been.
back in the day...... (when nature ran it's course), they died off early, but now'a days...the man keeps them going with price breaks on rent, medical, food and even gives them cash for clunkers.
Quote from: bobspapa on August 13, 2009, 10:20:24 AM
there is no solution.
some people are just born with a case of the dumb.
those people flock together and they mate.
no schooling fixes it.
it's the way of the world.... the way it's always been.
back in the day...... (when nature ran it's course), they died off early, but now'a days...the man keeps them going with price breaks on rent, medical, food and even gives them cash for clunkers.
not always true, the dumb ones who could run fast got away from the lions.
Quote from: ducatiz on August 13, 2009, 10:35:00 AM
not always true, the dumb ones who could run fast got away from the lions.
only to be drafted by the Raiders
Quote from: bobspapa on August 13, 2009, 10:36:44 AM
only to be drafted by the Raiders
perhaps, but it means some dumb ones survived and thrived...
Quote from: ducatiz on August 13, 2009, 10:55:59 AM
perhaps, but it means some dumb ones survived and thrived...
tiz true..... parasites area part of nature.
Quote from: bobspapa on August 13, 2009, 11:00:37 AM
tiz true..... parasites area part of nature.
Some parts of nature we can do without ;)
Quote from: bobspapa on August 13, 2009, 11:00:37 AM
tiz true..... parasites area part of nature.
i'd prefer to think of it as nature's way of giving us running backs. far more pleasant view of life.
Quote from: ducatiz on August 13, 2009, 11:50:02 AM
i'd prefer to think of it as nature's way of giving us running backs. far more pleasant view of life.
I'm OJ, and I approved this message
Quote from: ducatiz on August 13, 2009, 10:11:31 AM
amen to that
back home, grunt construction jobs were always taken by college age kids of all kinds (when i was growing up)... not the skilled stuff but the unskilled stuff. at some point, the college kids started refusing to do that work, never mind it was $25/hour (and this was the 80s).
for that reason, and I do not criticize them for it, hispanics moved in, mostly from Mexico and started taking the crap jobs. now, my home town has 4 spanish radio stations and there are tons of spanish businesses (restaurants, law firms, etc). All the latino workers took the $25/hr jobs, said "this is make the beast with two backsing great" and put their kids in college and are moving up.
Very true! Growing up, I worked construction every Summer and Winter break with my dad . A lot of his more affluent clients would ask my dad to hire their sons for Summer work.....not to learn the trade but to see what its like to sweat up on a hot roof all day or frame a house in 100 degree heat. Very inspiring, all went to University and got advanced degrees. I shoulda learnt!
A lot of the Hispanics that rake in the $25 an hour send a ton of money back to their country. Ive seen pics of my painter and my framers houses in Colombia and Honduras respectively, and theyve got some pimpy cribs! Ones in Tela Beach right on the water!
Quote from: rgramjet on August 13, 2009, 11:51:57 AM
Very true! Growing up, I worked construction every Summer and Winter break with my dad . A lot of his more affluent clients would ask my dad to hire their sons for Summer work.....not to learn the trade but to see what its like to sweat up on a hot roof all day or frame a house in 100 degree heat. Very inspiring, all went to University and got advanced degrees. I shoulda learnt
my dad had the same attitude, but i had already learned it was good by college, i did construction and demolition my first two summers in college-- by year 3, i was traveling too much, but i still did a little when i was home. the money was too good, and the owner bought everyone lunch. i socked it all away. by the time i finished undergrad, between the work and my scholarships, i came out with a profit... :D
Quote from: cyrus buelton on August 13, 2009, 09:59:40 AM
Cyrus's Solution:
1. Bring back neighborhood schools
2. Require parents to walk children <10 to school or drive them
3. Replace teachers with Sociologists.
4. Teach said children what it is like to be a respectful person
5. Require parents to sign off on kids homework
6. Smoke another J because my idea is so far fetched, but legit.
That's exactly what they've done at some "turnaround" schools for poor kids:
Full school year. Classes from 8-6 with a full homework load. You screw up, you're out. You don't do the work, you're out. You don't respect your teacher, or your classmates, you're out.
Basically, if you all but take over the raising of kids you can turn poor kids, with a 'poor' mindset, into middle class adults, with a 'middle-class' mindset. But it takes a huge amount of effort to overcome parenting that doesn't prep a kid for success.
Read "Outliers (http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017922)" if you want a full break-down of what I'm talking about.
It's a good read that makes strong case for how much success has to do with some of the most random shit imaginable (Birthday. Background.) and not what you'd normally think (IQ. Education.)
And....
We've got a complaint on the thread, so it's locked.